# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/121 "2014-05-10T16:46:47Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > I’d say an abortion, by any realistic definition is a killing. The question seems to be, is it the killing of a person, or the killing of cells that are not defined as a person? I’m defining it as the killing of a developing person, who is a Human being, but I stipulate that Society allows for certain killings because the the alternative is unacceptable. In every other case where “Society allows for certain killings” either the person being killed is guilty of some heinous crime, or it is an act of warfare. In the case of an abortion the person being killed is not just innocent of a crime, but cannot possibly be guilty yet of anything at all. And the alternative - that is, being born - is hardly “unacceptable”, since it happens to millions every year. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/122 "2014-05-10T17:19:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think “he sneaked in” is a bit disingenuous. How about "he walked in when I threw the doors open and put a sign out “Do come in and stay”? > The analogy, if you look upthread, came from the pro-abortion side. Desiring sex isn’t the same as desiring impregnation. You know that. Imprenation is a risk involved in sex. The analogy is ridiculous no matter who originated it. > [@Terr](#): > > In every other case where “Society allows for certain killings” either the person being killed is guilty of some heinous crime, or it is an act of warfare. In the case of an abortion the person being killed is not just innocent of a crime, but cannot possibly be guilty yet of anything at all. And the alternative - that is, being born - is hardly “unacceptable”, since it happens to millions every year. I don’t think enemy soldiers are guilty of anything except being conscripted or joining a military force. Guilt has nothing to do with it. It’s a matter of relative needs. The alternative to being pregnant is not giving birth, it’s continuing with a pregnancy. Society has decided that the woman may set her own priorities with regard to continuing a pregnancy, and terminate it under certain conditions. I think that’s reasonable. I just wish we’d call it what it is. It’s not the removal of inconvenient cells … it’s the acceptable killing of a person, the continued existence of whom is less important to Society than the comfort and happiness of the mother. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/123 "2014-05-10T17:23:52Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > It’s not the removal of inconvenient cells … it’s the acceptable killing of a person, the continued existence of whom is less important to Society than the comfort and happiness of the mother. And I don’t think that killing of a person should be less important to Society than the (temporary) comfort and happiness of the mother. It is a legitimate view point, one that most liberals here don’t seem to be able to grok. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/124 "2014-05-10T17:38:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And I don’t think that killing of a person should be less important to Society than the (temporary) comfort and happiness of the mother. It is a legitimate view point, one that most liberals here don’t seem to be able to grok. Right, it’s not about temporary discomfort, it’s about not desiring to be pregnant, not being willing to give birth, and not accepting the responsibility to either raise a child or see that it is given up for adoption. Whether the life of the fetus is more or less valuable than the life-style of the mother is a matter of opinion, a matter for the courts, and a political chess piece. The courts will likely react to political pressures. You’re entitled to your opinion. You shouldn’t presume that folks who disagree don’t understand your position. I understand it. I just disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/125 "2014-05-10T17:42:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And I don’t think that killing of a person should be less important to Society than the (temporary) comfort and happiness of the mother. It is a legitimate view point, one that most liberals here don’t seem to be able to grok. No; most liberals just don’t think a fetus is a person in the first place. And if it is? That just creates a category of so-called “person” that it is OK to kill for even trivial reasons. Calling a fetus a person doesn’t uplift the fetus, it degrades the term “person”. EDIT: And, forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term is the moral equivalent of raping her for nine months. So yes, it would be moral for her to kill it even if it was an actual person, just as it would be moral for her to kill a rapist. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/126 "2014-05-10T18:00:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And I don’t think that killing of a person should be less important to Society than the (temporary) comfort and happiness of the mother. It is a legitimate view point, one that most liberals here don’t seem to be able to grok. But it is only because you have decided that an acorn is a tree, and an egg is a chicken, that you even hold that position. I grant that well meaning people can think a fetus is a person. However, more do not. And aside from religious beliefs, thinking a mindless fetus is a person worth protection of law is the result of base sentimentality. Because it has cute little toes. Awww. Since there is disagreement about the nature of the fetus, the reasonable thing is to allow the individual to choose. But that assumes you’re looking for the reasonable thing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/127 "2014-05-10T18:00:51Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Right, it’s not about temporary discomfort, it’s about not desiring to be pregnant, not being willing to give birth, and not accepting the responsibility to either raise a child or see that it is given up for adoption. Whether the life of the fetus is more or less valuable than the life-style of the mother is a matter of opinion, a matter for the courts, and a political chess piece. The courts will likely react to political pressures. You’re entitled to your opinion. You shouldn’t presume that folks who disagree don’t understand your position. I understand it. I just disagree. You do. But look upthread and look at people claim that instead of a legitimate opinion, the conservatives’ position is because they hate women, and wish to oppress and torment them, or because they are religious nuts, or because they are cynically trying to get votes. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/128 "2014-05-10T18:02:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Since there is disagreement about the nature of the fetus, the reasonable thing is to allow the individual to choose. But that assumes you’re looking for the reasonable thing. “Since there is a disagreement, the “reasonable thing” is to have my opinion prevail.” Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/129 "2014-05-10T18:05:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Since there is a disagreement, the “reasonable thing” is to have my opinion prevail.” No, it’s “the reasonable thing is to let people decide for themselves”. Thus, the term “pro-choice”. It’s the so-called “pro-life”, anti-choice people who are saying that their opinion should prevail. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/130 "2014-05-10T18:07:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s “the reasonable thing is to let people decide for themselves”. Thus, the term “pro-choice”. Sure. Let the mother decide for herself whether to kill the kid or not. It’s the “reasonable thing”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/131 "2014-05-10T18:08:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that the legality of abortions is critical to the success of this argument. Abortions are legal, and thus, not murder. > > But if I come along and argue that abortion should be illegal, you can hardly counter that argument by relying on abortion being legal. > > Abortion is legal now because the Supreme Court ruled that the Constitution forbids restricting it. Suppose a future Supreme Court found that, contrary to the holding in Roe v. Wade, unborn children had a Fourteenth Amendment right to life? I think abortions should be legal regardless of what the Supreme Court says. My argument for abortion doesn’t rely on it being legal or illegal. I think the fetus is mindless and soulless and doesn’t rise to the level of living human. I think a fetus is essentially brain-dead. And we pull the plugs on the brain dead. I’m good with that. And I think the social good of not having women forced to raise unwanted children is so profound a benefit protecting it is laudable. I think Terr was being absurd because he was using a word for illegal killing to give emotional weight to his argument. I think the death penalty is unjust, but I shouldn’t call it murder. Since it is legal. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/132 "2014-05-10T18:09:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure. Let the mother decide for herself whether to kill the kid or not. It’s the “reasonable thing”. A fetus isn’t a kid. Also an egg isn’t a chicken and an acorn isn’t a tree. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/133 "2014-05-10T18:11:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I think a fetus is essentially brain-dead. And we pull the plugs on the brain dead. I don’t think anyone is allowed to “pull the plugs on the brain dead” if there is (as is in the case of a fetus) a close-to-100% chance that in a few months it will not be “brain dead”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/134 "2014-05-10T18:15:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t think anyone is allowed to “pull the plugs on the brain dead” if there is (as is in the case of a fetus) a close-to-100% chance that in a few months it will not be “brain dead”. A pile of lumber will be your house in a few months. You aren’t allowed to live in it until then. So sometimes we change how we deal with things based on their level of development. Get it? If not, call GEICO and try to get motorcycle insurance for a pile of metal ingots and some rubber plants. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/135 "2014-05-10T18:23:02Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > A pile of lumber will be your house in a few months. You aren’t allowed to live in it until then. > > So sometimes we change how we deal with things based on their level of development. Get it? > > If not, call GEICO and try to get motorcycle insurance for a pile of metal ingots and some rubber plants. Analogy fail. If you leave the pile of lumber alone, it will not become a house. Same with the motorcycle/pile of metal. With the fetus, all you have to do is NOT prevent it from naturally developing. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/136 "2014-05-10T18:26:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Analogy fail. If you leave the pile of lumber alone, it will not become a house. Same with the motorcycle/pile of metal. With the fetus, all you have to do is NOT prevent it from naturally developing. If you leave the fetus alone, like at a bus stop, it will not become a human. So if we had self-assembling houses, you should be able to live in them before they keep the rain off? Self-assembly is an extraneous tangent. You’re grasping at it because your argument is weak. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/137 "2014-05-10T18:35:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you leave the fetus alone, like at a bus stop, it will not become a human. > > So if we had self-assembling houses, you should be able to live in them before they keep the rain off? Self-assembly is an extraneous tangent. You’re grasping at it because your argument is weak. I think your argument/analogies are not weak, they are ridiculous. And if you keep patting yourself on the back, your elbow may get out of socket. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/138 "2014-05-10T18:39:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think your argument/analogies are not weak, they are ridiculous. And if you keep patting yourself on the back, your elbow may get out of socket. Thankfully, I have good health insurance that covers self-congratulatory-elbow-dysplasia. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/139 "2014-05-10T18:46:03Z")
The most reasonable, intelligent, well-thought out, and sane approach to abortion I’ve ever encountered was in [this essay by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan](http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml). I really can’t recommend it enough for anyone, whether pro-choice or pro-life. What abortion legality comes down to is what defines a human being, and the essay explores the development of a fetus’ brain, etc, to pin down an exact time when a fetus becomes “human.” As for the original question asked in the OP, most conservatives are against abortion because they believe it to be murder. Are there people who oppose it because they’re misogynists? Yes, but they’re in the minority, and despite the fact that I’m not pro-life, I do find calling about 50% of the country sexists a bit counterproductive. And the endless violin player/acorn/pile of wood/rapist/organ donor/mother murdering grown children/stranger in your house analogies tailored to make whatever side look good are pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/140 "2014-05-10T18:50:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure. Let the mother decide for herself whether to kill the kid or not. It’s the “reasonable thing”. Calling a mindless fetus a “kid” makes it no less mindless. And yes, the woman has a perfect right to kill a mindless thing inside her, “kid” or not. \* Calling\* that mindless thing a “kid” as a rhetorical ploy on the other hand isn’t reasonable at all. > [@Terr](#): > > I don’t think anyone is allowed to “pull the plugs on the brain dead” if there is (as is in the case of a fetus) a close-to-100% chance that in a few months it will not be “brain dead”. If that could happen then they wouldn’t be brain dead in the first place. Also, as soon as human cloning is perfected if your logic is taken seriously then even scratching yourself will be murder, since every cell will be just as much a “potential person” as that brain dead body on life support. More so, actually. A brain dead person isn’t just unconscious; the person who used to be there has been destroyed. An unconscious person isn’t a “potential person”, they are a person who is shut down. A fetus just isn’t a person at all. > [@Octarine](#): > > As for the original question asked in the OP, most conservatives are against abortion because they believe it to be murder. Are there people who oppose it because they’re misogynists? Yes, but they’re in the minority, and despite the fact that I’m not pro-life, I do find calling about 50% of the country sexists a bit counterproductive. Again; their behavior simply does not fit the claim that they believe that abortion is murder. It does fit with the claim that they are misogynists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=8)