# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/141 "2014-05-10T19:24:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Again; their behavior simply does not fit the claim that they believe that abortion is murder. It does fit with the claim that they are misogynists. I’m assuming you’re referring to Post 106, where you said: > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they hate women, and wish to oppress and torment them. Forbidding abortion is just a useful club for them to beat on women with. > > They don’t care at all about the “unborn”; their behavior simply does not fit their claimed motivation. They show no concern at all for the health of the fetus, and none for the baby they’ve forced to be born. Nor do they care if the fetus is doomed to die, or already dead, so long as they can force the woman to birth it. Nor in places where they can get away with it have they hesitated to condemn women to a slow death by forbidding them an abortion to save their life. Nor have they showed any great interest in actually doing anything that reduces the number of abortions; only in making them less safe and more degrading. > > The so-called anti-abortion movement is a hate movement directed at women, nothing more. A more successful, gender targeted equivalent of the KKK. I see where you’re coming from when you talk about how conservatives don’t care about the fetus once it’s born; the lack of support for health care reform, etc, is definitely irrational. But I’ve never heard of anyone forcing a woman to bring a dead fetus to term, or even if that would be possible, so I don’t know if I’m misreading your post or just not aware of this. And if you’re really going to say that anyone who supports restrictions of any kind on abortions is the moral equivalent to a member of the Klan, then I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Again, are there many pro-lifers who are sexist pigs? Lots. But painting an issue as complex and philosophical as abortion rights in such a black and white way only increases the already sky high tensions between the two groups, and brings us farther away from coming to a logical, peaceful solution. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/142 "2014-05-10T19:54:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You do. But look upthread and look at people claim that instead of a legitimate opinion, the conservatives’ position is because they hate women, and wish to oppress and torment them, or because they are religious nuts, or because they are cynically trying to get votes. OK, do you claim there are no Conservatives that seek to (and in fact do) dominate women, and are or portray themselves to be very religious (to the point of attempting to pull Science like Evolution Theory out of the classroom and replace it with Creationism … in Science class)? Do you additionally claim politicians aren’t cynical and don’t pander for votes? I don’t sit in judgement of Liberals or Conservatives. I’ll listen to all arguments. I think the most reasonable on both sides have valid points to consider. William Buckley once said, “The difference between abortion and murder is one day, the child is in the womb, and the next, it’s born. Kill it before it’s born, it’s abortion … after it’s born … murder.” I’m paraphrasing, but his point is fascinating. He was a brilliant guy. I still disagree with him. Now, Bill Buckley was in favor of legalizing some drugs, including pot, so he wasn’t a rabid unreasonable Conservative. He had some ideas I could relate to. Banning most abortions isn’t one of them. I see why someone could make the case that killing a developing fetus is immoral, but it’s a scale of benefits vs losses, and I think the benefits out-weigh the losses. I’m not trying to convince anyone. This is a Political issue, and a Legal matter. My opinion is my own … I wouldn’t force it on anyone. I wouldn’t force anyone to get an abortion or insist anyone not be allowed to have the procedure. I’d hate to see it restricted more than it is presently. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/143 "2014-05-10T20:07:34Z")
> [@Octarine](#): > > But I’ve never heard of anyone forcing a woman to bring a dead fetus to term, or even if that would be possible, so I don’t know if I’m misreading your post or just not aware of this. That’s one of the results of their attempts to forbid third trimester abortions. The fetus dying is one of the causes for such abortions. > [@Octarine](#): > > But painting an issue as complex and philosophical as abortion rights in such a black and white way only increases the already sky high tensions between the two groups, and brings us farther away from coming to a logical, peaceful solution. There is no “logical, peaceful solution” to be made with people like this. They can only be overcome or evaded, not reasoned with or appealed to. Attempting to treat unreasonable, hate-driven people like this as rational, well meaning people who can be compromised with is a major part of what has let the Right gain so much power in America. They’ll just take whatever concessions you offer for nothing in return, then demand more - the Republicans have been doing that to the Democrats for many years. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/144 "2014-05-10T20:28:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they hate women, and wish to oppress and torment them. Forbidding abortion is just a useful club for them to beat on women with. > > They don’t care at all about the “unborn”; their behavior simply does not fit their claimed motivation. They show no concern at all for the health of the fetus, and none for the baby they’ve forced to be born. Nor do they care if the fetus is doomed to die, or already dead, so long as they can force the woman to birth it. Nor in places where they can get away with it have they hesitated to condemn women to a slow death by forbidding them an abortion to save their life. Nor have they showed any great interest in actually doing anything that reduces the number of abortions; only in making them less safe and more degrading. > > The so-called anti-abortion movement is a hate movement directed at women, nothing more. A more successful, gender targeted equivalent of the KKK. Der Trihs, you’ve been told before - [on this exact same issue and when you used almost those exact same words](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16249212&postcount=78) - that such are inappropriate. In addition, you’ve been told over the last year that painting with such a broad brush and with such hostility does not advance debate. Warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/145 "2014-05-10T20:36:44Z")
> [@Octarine](#): > > The most reasonable, intelligent, well-thought out, and sane approach to abortion I’ve ever encountered was in [this essay by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan](http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml) … What abortion legality comes down to is what defines a human being, and the essay explores the development of a fetus’ brain, etc, to pin down an exact time when a fetus becomes “human.” I read it. For those who haven’t, Sagan and Druyan conclude that “humanness” is best defined as the ability to think in human-like terms, that this occurs around the third trimester, and that Roe v. Wade was a reasonable compromise (though the ruling wasn’t made for those reasons). Sagan was a brilliant and thoughtful person, and I would regard what he wrote as a reasonable philosophical position. I just don’t agree that objective scientific criteria can be productively applied to something so intrinsically subjective. Which leads me to this… > [@Octarine](#): > > … But painting an issue as complex and philosophical as abortion rights in such a black and white way only increases the already sky high tensions between the two groups, and brings us farther away from coming to a logical, peaceful solution. Exactly. And that’s why the only “logical, peaceful solution” is for the government to stay the hell out of it. Sagan mentions the 1989 Webster ruling which declined to overturn Roe v. Wade but basically invited the states to set their own laws. What pro-choice advocates are really saying is to take this to its logical conclusion and allow each individual woman to make her own choice, based on her own views, her own emotional and physical situation, her own family and life situation. What sense does it make to declare that “abortion is murder” in the third trimester in one state, but in the second trimester in another state, and perhaps not at all someplace else? The pro-choice view isn’t that abortion is a good thing, it’s to not try to answer a question that is not answerable, at least not in a way that everyone can agree with, and certainly not to empower that arbitrary answer with the force of law. That was the basis of my sarcastic earlier comment about simple answers to profoundly complex questions. You would think that conservatives would be the first to want government to stay the hell out of personal and private matters, but apparently not when it comes to their supposed overwhelming concern for the unborn. Yet, at the risk of repeating myself, conservatives are utterly unconcerned about the baby’s welfare after it’s born: they’ll happily vote against children’s health insurance, Medicaid, education, and social assistance. This is more than just irrational: it reeks of hypocrisy and misogyny, and tells us that perhaps they aren’t being entirely truthful – maybe not even with themselves – about the real reasons they want to outlaw all abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/146 "2014-05-10T20:46:32Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That was the basis of my sarcastic earlier comment about simple answers to profoundly complex questions. You would think that conservatives would be the first to want government to stay the hell out of personal and private matters, but apparently not when it comes to their supposed overwhelming concern for the unborn. Yet, at the risk of repeating myself, conservatives are utterly unconcerned about the baby’s welfare after it’s born: they’ll happily vote against children’s health insurance, Medicaid, education, and social assistance. This is more than just irrational: it reeks of hypocrisy and misogyny, and tells us that perhaps they aren’t being entirely truthful – maybe not even with themselves – about the real reasons they want to outlaw all abortion. … because the desire to protect the baby from being murdered HAS to lead to the desire to tax everyone to create welfare programs to support the baby after it was born. There is absolutely no other rational way to think, is there? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/147 "2014-05-10T21:00:49Z")
> [@Octarine](#): > > The most reasonable, intelligent, well-thought out, and sane approach to abortion I’ve ever encountered was in [this essay by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan](http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml). I really can’t recommend it enough for anyone, whether pro-choice or pro-life. What abortion legality comes down to is what defines a human being, and the essay explores the development of a fetus’ brain, etc, to pin down an exact time when a fetus becomes “human.” It’s a good article, and maybe you didn’t mean it this way, but Sagan is clear that one cannot pin down the “exact tie” when a fetus becomes a “human”. I’m pretty comfortable with Sagan’s conclusions (which just so happen to be the same as my own 🙂 ), but Americans should realize that we have some of the most liberal abortion laws in the western world. It’s not uncommon for European countries to restrict abortion on demand to the 1st trimester. At any rate, the idea that the government should stay out of this is nonsense. Few people are going to agree that abortion on demand should extend up to the point of delivery. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/148 "2014-05-10T21:02:15Z")
I’m personally wishy-washy pro-life. Given my druthers/recognizing reality First Trimester: only restriction being gender selection Second/Third Trimester: Safe PHYSICAL health of mother/doomed fetus Doomed=Won’t survive to donate organs. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/149 "2014-05-10T21:04:23Z")
Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post “That was the basis of my sarcastic earlier comment about simple answers to profoundly complex questions. You would think that conservatives would be the first to want government to stay the hell out of personal and private matters, but apparently not when it comes to their supposed overwhelming concern for the unborn. Yet, at the risk of repeating myself, conservatives are utterly unconcerned about the baby’s welfare after it’s born: they’ll happily vote against children’s health insurance, Medicaid, education, and social assistance. This is more than just irrational: it reeks of hypocrisy and misogyny, and tells us that perhaps they aren’t being entirely truthful – maybe not even with themselves – about the real reasons they want to outlaw all abortion.” There are some good points here. I think it’s fair to point out that if a group perceives a moral injustice, it would out weigh the inclination to keep government out of a woman’s private business. I disagree with that line of thought, but I think it’s reasonable for a Conservative to take the stance that the welfare of an unborn child is more important that the privacy of the mother. It is disturbing that Conservatives typically want every fetus brought to term, but would rather not spend Society’s wealth on rearing and medical care for that child. We should have universal health care in this country, at a minimum, and arguing that more unwanted children are born i8nto a Society without it is disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/150 "2014-05-10T21:11:51Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > It is disturbing that Conservatives typically want every fetus brought to term, but would rather not spend Society’s wealth on rearing and medical care for that child. We should have universal health care in this country, at a minimum, and arguing that more unwanted children are born i8nto a Society without it is disturbing. Many conservatives (and some liberals) think abortion is murder, and most conservatives don’t think in terms of “Society’s wealth”, so really what you are saying is that it’s disturbing that conservatives don’t think like liberals. But then, they wouldn’t be conservatives, would they? ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/151 "2014-05-10T22:14:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s a good article, and maybe you didn’t mean it this way, but Sagan is clear that one cannot pin down the “exact tie” when a fetus becomes a “human”. True - I was referring to how, while acknowledging that, he also pointed towards the time when the fetus can just barely create normal brain waves as when they acquire human thought (which is, he argues, what really makes people people). > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m pretty comfortable with Sagan’s conclusions (which just so happen to be the same as my own 🙂 ), but Americans should realize that we have some of the most liberal abortion laws in the western world. It’s not uncommon for European countries to restrict abortion on demand to the 1st trimester. At any rate, the idea that the government should stay out of this is nonsense. Few people are going to agree that abortion on demand should extend up to the point of delivery. There’s a pretty interesting map of abortion restrictions [over here](http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/). While most of Europe is green (green not meaning entirely unrestricted, just open to any reason), there are a few outliers - Finland, for example, apparently determines legality by socioeconomic standing. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/152 "2014-05-10T22:36:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Many conservatives (and some liberals) think abortion is murder, and most conservatives don’t think in terms of “Society’s wealth”, so really what you are saying is that it’s disturbing that conservatives don’t think like liberals. But then, they wouldn’t be conservatives, would they? I often see people try to make the point that if conservatives actually cared about the (unborn) kid, they would vote for more health spending and such so that it would actually have a good life, and it always strikes me as a really bad argument. (FWIW, I’m pro-abortion) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/153 "2014-05-10T22:56:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … Americans should realize that we have some of the most liberal abortion laws in the western world. It’s not uncommon for European countries to restrict abortion on demand to the 1st trimester. Actually, as **Octarine** already pointed out, abortion laws in most of Europe are generally pretty liberal. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > At any rate, the idea that the government should stay out of this is nonsense. Few people are going to agree that abortion on demand should extend up to the point of delivery. Abortion law in Canada: in 1988 the Supreme Court [ordered the government to stay the hell out of it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada), and it’s been that way ever since: > [@](#): > > In 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada decision in Her Majesty, The Queen in Right of Canada v. Dr. Henry Morgentaler, Dr. Leslie Frank Smoling and Dr. Robert Scott, indexed by the court as R. v. Morgentaler, declared the entirety of Section 231 of the Criminal Code to be of no force or effect because it was held to violate section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 7 states that: “Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.” But I don’t know where you get “abortion on demand up to the point of delivery” out of this. Late-term abortions are almost never done, except for valid medical reasons, and you’d be hard-pressed to find a doctor willing to do it. Medical ethics goes a long way without having to worry about murder charges and meddling government bureaucracy when a doctor and his patient have to make difficult and intensely personal decisions. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Many conservatives (and some liberals) think abortion is murder, and most conservatives don’t think in terms of “Society’s wealth”, so really what you are saying is that it’s disturbing that conservatives don’t think like liberals. But then, they wouldn’t be conservatives, would they? Regardless of your semantic wordplay, it continues to amaze me that conservatives care so much about something that spends the first two-thirds of its life as a non-sentient lump of goop, and so little about actual children. The Republicans’ opposition to the Children’s Health Insurance Program, rejection of free federal Medicaid expansion, and general opposition to funding public education is really nothing short of stunning. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/154 "2014-05-10T23:05:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Actually, as **Octarine** already pointed out, abortion laws in most of Europe are generally pretty liberal. If he “pointed that out”, he was wrong. Most European countries have laws that are less liberal than the US. That is the point I was making. > [@](#): > > Regardless of your semantic wordplay, it continues to amaze me that conservatives care so much about something that spends the first two-thirds of its life as a non-sentient lump of goop, and so little about actual children. The Republicans’ opposition to the Children’s Health Insurance Program, rejection of free federal Medicaid expansion, and general opposition to funding public education is really nothing short of stunning. You’ll have to take that up with someone who is conservative. I’m about as pro-choice as they come in the US. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/155 "2014-05-11T02:55:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If he “pointed that out”, he was wrong. Most European countries have laws that are less liberal than the US. That is the point I was making. I would disagree with that. With a few exceptions (the UK being the major one) abortions are permitted on demand, limited to more or less the first trimester, with no other real restrictions that I’m aware of. In the US, first of all it took Roe v. Wade to create the present status; before that, only two states in the entire continental US (Washington and New York) permitted on-demand, and in half the states, abortion was unconditionally illegal and could not be performed under _ **any** _ circumstances There’s a good article [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States_by_state) which also includes a map of which states unconditionally banned abortion – some might want to amuse themselves before looking at the map by guessing which states those were. Here’s a hint: it’s most of the same states that recently turned down expanded Medicaid and most strongly oppose the ACA, lest children who are actually born might accidentally get health care. :rolleyes: Granted, the laws are not like that today, but only because of Roe, and I mention it because, unlike Europe, there is a powerful political element that would like to see Roe overturned and the old status quo restored. In the meantime, at the state level they are enacting every possible obstacle to abortion that doesn’t directly contravene Roe, like mandatory “counseling”, waiting periods, mandatory ultrasounds, and anything else they can think of. They have to abide by the letter of the law, but by God they don’t intend to abide by the spirit of the law. The thinking is: they’re going to make these loose women go to hell and back before they’ll let them have an abortion. Until the day that Roe is overturned, praise the Lord. Of course in Canada, as I mentioned, there are no abortion laws at all, and look what happens: they’ve now legalized same-sex marriage. Obviously, the entire nation is just begging for the Wrath of God to descend upon them, and they are going to burn in hell. 😃 > [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’ll have to take that up with someone who is conservative. I’m about as pro-choice as they come in the US. Fair enough. I look forward to having a conservative explain why they’re so obsessed with fetuses but have no interest in children after they’re born and start having real life experiences that mold them into actual people. Apparently when a real child suffers or dies from lack of health care or proper nutrition, or grows up without an adequate education, this is all a matter of Personal Responsibility™. But when it’s still a shapeless blob in a woman’s body, conservatives have to leap into action to ensure its well-being every step of the way. If this means that the evil of Intrusive Government Overreach™ needs to intrude right into the uterus, well, that’s just how it is. Just as long as the government doesn’t touch their guns. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/156 "2014-05-11T03:00:40Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Fair enough. I look forward to having a conservative explain why they’re so obsessed with fetuses but have no interest in children after they’re born and start having real life experiences that mold them into actual people. A conservative would be just as concerned with preventing a murder of a child after the child is born, and after it “starts having real life experiences”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/157 "2014-05-11T04:42:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A conservative would be just as concerned with preventing a murder of a child after the child is born, and after it “starts having real life experiences”. That doesn’t address the question. At all. Anyone would agree with this. It’s a no-brainer; it doesn’t involve weighing difficult or contentious issues or making value judgments. But abortion does. It involves weighing the rights and prerogatives of the mother – an actual living person – against something that, for about the first three to six months or so, is largely a non-sentient mass of protoplasm. Likewise, the quality of life of an actual child involves tradeoffs related to health care, nutrition, lifestyle, proper parenting, education, and so forth – tradeoffs because these things cost money, and sometimes that money has to come from the taxpayers or the child doesn’t get them. It’s not how you make the obvious no-brainer decisions that matters, it’s how you make the hard ones. And I say again, when it comes to abortion issues, there is this strange disconnect between how conservatives weight the tradeoffs in favor of the unborn versus how they weigh the tradeoffs for the actual child after birth. Interestingly, both the US Roe v. Wade decision and the Canadian Supreme Court decision on abortion both invoked a very similar clause in the countries’ respective Constitutions governing the rights and liberties of the mother. Conservatives seem to accord the rights of the mother a weight of about zero. Not to mention the consequences to mother, child, and society of a child that, for whatever reason, is not wanted, even if there aren’t any physical or emotional risks to carrying to term. But as pointed out earlier, before Roe v. Wade, fully half of the traditionally right-wing states outlawed abortion unconditionally, at any stage of gestation, regardless of reason. There is something going on here that clearly defies logic. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/158 "2014-05-11T06:10:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Many conservatives (and some liberals) think abortion is murder, and most conservatives don’t think in terms of “Society’s wealth”, so really what you are saying is that it’s disturbing that conservatives don’t think like liberals. But then, they wouldn’t be conservatives, would they? Well, unless the law is changed, it’s not murder. It is killing. Exactly how do you know that most Conservatives wouldn’t understand that Society, by virtue of a government that taxes the citizens, has a given amount of wealth to allocate toward social programs? Are you saying they don’t have a concept of funding programs by spending money? That seems bizarre. Now, to paraphrase me, you’ve said something substantially more vague. “Think like liberals” does not equal what I said. “It is disturbing that Conservatives typically want every fetus brought to term, but would rather not spend Society’s wealth on rearing and medical care for that child. We should have universal health care in this country, at a minimum, and arguing that more unwanted children are born into a Society without it is disturbing.” Specifically, insisting that women carry unborn children to term, and then give birth should include free health care for the mother and the child. For the life of the mother and the child. Universal healthcare is a good investment in the people. A farmer cares for his stock, but the military industrial complex doesn’t care for their workers. That concept shouldn’t clash with a Conservative mindset. It has become a political chess piece, I believe, because insurance companies and the AMA have such powerful lobbies. Since the middle 60s, this government has spent enough on welfare to have made at least three generations of recipients millionaires many times over. Those trillions were largely wasted, IMO. Is that a Conservative opinion? I just think it’s reality. It served a political agenda, or it wouldn’t have been funded. Instead, we should have funded Universal healthcare and jobs programs that stressed childcare and work requirements instead of welfare families continuing from generation to generation. But, that’s a subject for another thread. I’ll agree to disagree whether abortion should be defined by the courts as murder. If the government isn’t able to accept the burden of caring for it’s own citizens, it should stop funneling their taxes into wasteful programs and constant wars. It would make good economic sense for the conservative politicians to divorce themselves from the AMA and the giant insurance companies, and work for the Society, rather than for themselves. That’s not radical thinking, just a call to curtail the unethical status quo and replace it with policies that fix what’s broken in our country. Regarding the OP, I’m not convinced an overwhelming majority of conservatives honestly believe abortion is murder, anymore than I think every Liberal wants to ban guns. These are just positions that the parties have staked out to form talking points, Shibboleths if you will, that differentiate the voters and try to keep them neatly entrenched as “Red” or “Blue”. It works to divide us and create tribal tensions between us that play into the agendas of the military industrial complex. Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/159 "2014-05-11T06:14:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s not how you make the obvious no-brainer decisions that matters, it’s how you make the hard ones. And I say again, when it comes to abortion issues, there is this strange disconnect between how conservatives weight the tradeoffs in favor of the unborn versus how they weigh the tradeoffs for the actual child after birth. And I keep telling you it is not a “strange disconnect”. One decision is NOT to allow a murder. Another is to tax and spend. How are the two related? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/160 "2014-05-11T06:36:23Z")
Ok, this is comical. I actually quite literally laughed out loud as I read this exchange. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > If he “pointed that out”, he was wrong. Most European countries have laws that are less liberal than the US. That is the point I was making. > [@](#): > > Wolfpup > I would disagree with that. With a few exceptions (the UK being the major one) abortions are permitted on demand,\*\* limited to more or less the first trimester\*\*, with no other real restrictions that I’m aware of. Of course what Wolfpup is ignoring is that it is easier to get a second trimester abortion in such liberal states as Alabama and Texas than in most European countries, such as France. He is claiming to disagree with John Mace, but he is effectively admitting that what John Mace is saying is the truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=9)