# How come Gandalf didn't know Bilbo had the One Ring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [October 17, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163 "2009-10-17T20:35:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/81 "2009-10-22T17:20:04Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > If that’s the case, just picking up the One Ring and putting it on wouldn’t give the wearer info on how to use the ‘back door’. Yes, but this issue is not of the wielder of the One Ring affecting the wielders of the other rings, but the most gifted of those wielders - Gandalf - realising someone - Bilbo or even Gollum before him - had put on the One Ring. After all, in the Silmarillion, it states that the bearers of the Three were immediately aware when Sauron put on the One. Not when Sauron tried to exert his control but immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/82 "2009-10-22T17:43:07Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Not when Sauron tried to exert his control but immediately. If I was Sauron, I’d be trying to exert my control as immediately as possible, since he knew the elves probably weren’t going to be too keen on being controlled. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/83 "2009-10-22T19:58:42Z")
Interesting hypothesis, **Oy!**. Certainly the Dwarves had spirits, since Illuvatar put the Secret Fire into them when he adopted them. But it’s still quite plausible that the spirits of Dwarves are qualitatively different from those of Men or Elves, in some way. Do you have a reference for the seven Dwarf-lords not turning invisible when they wore their rings, though? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/84 "2009-10-22T20:28:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Does anyone know hot to say “Mall” in Elvish? I’m reminded of [The Very Secret Diaries of Cassandra Claire](http://www.ealasaid.com/misc/vsd/), specifically Arwen’s diary: “Went all the way to the Gap of Rohan only to find there is no Gap in Rohan. Not even a Banana Republic. False advertising!” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/85 "2009-10-22T21:02:22Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > “Went all the way to the Gap of Rohan only to find there is no Gap in Rohan. Not even a Banana Republic. False advertising!” Good gad, that could be right out of _Bored of the Rings._ Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/86 "2009-10-22T21:09:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Good gad, that could be right out of _Bored of the Rings._ > Thanks! IIRC, she wrote those on the heels of the release of the FotR movie (and, the last few after the release of TTT). I was always hoping she’d write more, but at least these have been saved for posterity. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/87 "2009-10-22T23:17:16Z")
God, I’d forgotten how funny those are! > [@](#): > > The Very Secret Diary of Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, Part Two > > Day Seven > > Suspect Eowyn fancies me. Cannot blame her as stubble so manly is turning even self on. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/88 "2009-10-22T23:35:52Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > (Flashes back to Orson Bean and Roddy McDowall) > Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Another comment on this. Not only is the movie not very good, but what is up with the DVD cover? [The Return of the King (1980 film) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Return_of_the_King_%281980_film%29) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/89 "2009-10-23T04:02:30Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > As I said, you don’t command the Ringwraiths just because you wear the ring. The ring augments your personal powers of coercion and domination. If your personal powers don’t run along those lines, you’ll be lucky to dominate a wretch like Gollum. > > Frodo might have grown powerful enough to do so, but he would first have to turn himself into a monster. Even Galadriel or Gandalf or Aragorn would have to exercise parts of themselves best left unexercised. As Gandalf said, he would first be tempted to use the ring for good–to banish the Ringwraiths, stiffen the hearts of the Alliance, and so on. But the ring is a tool for domination, and the more you use it for domination the simpler and easier that domination becomes, and pretty soon you’re drinking blood out of the skulls of your enemies. I think that the nature of rings was such that Morgoth inserted a power for subjugation into the music and Sauron knew about it and exploited it by inventing rings in such a way that any ring would be subject to the power of a Morgoth/Sauron made ring that was designed to dominate. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/90 "2009-10-23T13:28:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Interesting hypothesis, **Oy!**. Certainly the Dwarves had spirits, since Illuvatar put the Secret Fire into them when he adopted them. But it’s still quite plausible that the spirits of Dwarves are qualitatively different from those of Men or Elves, in some way. Do you have a reference for the seven Dwarf-lords not turning invisible when they wore their rings, though? The Ring FAQs cited by **QtM** I _thought_ said that, but maybe I misread. But it would make sense that they wouldn’t turn invisible, since it definitely says they don’t get wraithified. Wraithification and invisibility seem to be linked. I didn’t remember Illuvatar putting the Secret Fire into the Dwarves, but that doesn’t mean much, because I’ve only read _The Silmarillion_ once, and not much of the other material (except _LotR_, of course). I’m no Tolkien scholar. We know that Elves go back to Valinor, whether by ship or by death, or at least that is my understanding. Does anyone know what happens to Men or Dwarves? The Rohirrim appear to believe in a Valhalla-type after-life, where they rejoin their deceased ancestors, but there doesn’t seem to be any indication that anyone else shares that belief. Do the mortals die dead? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/91 "2009-10-23T18:43:39Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > We know that Elves go back to Valinor, whether by ship or by death, or at least that is my understanding. Does anyone know what happens to Men or Dwarves? The Rohirrim appear to believe in a Valhalla-type after-life, where they rejoin their deceased ancestors, but there doesn’t seem to be any indication that anyone else shares that belief. Do the mortals die dead? They get the Supreme Cop-Out. The death of mortal men and women is [referred](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_of_Men) to (maybe in the Silmarillion) as “the Gift of Iluvatar,” and it’s supposed to be a good thing. To my mind, Iluvatar was just reclassifying a bug as a feature. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/92 "2009-10-23T18:55:53Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Another comment on this. Not only is the movie not very good, but what is up with the DVD cover? [The Return of the King (1980 film) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Return_of_the_King_%281980_film%29) Heh. “Hey, guys! I just got back from Mordor where I destroyed the…aw crap.” ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/93 "2009-10-24T14:45:42Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > They get the Supreme Cop-Out. The death of mortal men and women is [referred](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_of_Men) to (maybe in the Silmarillion) as “the Gift of Iluvatar,” and it’s supposed to be a good thing. To my mind, Iluvatar was just reclassifying a bug as a feature. That’s a great and very informative article, but it doesn’t touch upon the Dwarves at all. Are they, like Hobbits, numbered among the Younger Children of Ilúvatar? Yeah, “Gift,” my ass. I guess that attitude just means I was corrupted by Morgoth. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/94 "2009-10-24T14:50:58Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Another comment on this. Not only is the movie not very good, but what is up with the DVD cover? [The Return of the King (1980 film) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Return_of_the_King_%281980_film%29) Oh my dearie dear dear. _Casey Kasem_ as Pippin Took? I was so happy before I knew about this ‘film.’ Why, **asterion**? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/95 "2009-10-24T15:04:15Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > That’s a great and very informative article, but it doesn’t touch upon the Dwarves at all. Are they, like Hobbits, numbered among the Younger Children of Ilúvatar? From Sil: > [@Eru](#): > > ‘when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.’ So it seems they’re the adopted kids of Iluvatar, but Aulë was their real parent. Sort of like a grandparent adopting one of their own illegitimate grandkids. 😉 > [@](#): > > Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. There may be some more notes in HOMES about what happens to the dwarves when they die, but I’ve not uncovered them yet. Even with searchable text, there’s a lot of ground to cover in HOMES. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/96 "2009-10-24T15:05:23Z")
I’m a LOTR noob. I’ve seen all the movies and I read all the books a long time ago (I really should re-read them, it’s been a couple decades). Anyway: how come we never see Sauron? I mean, he’s a person, right? And since I cannot recollect, does Sauron have any dialogue in the books? Does he ever speak? I can’t recall if he’s ever seen or heard in the movies, other than that electric eye of his. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/97 "2009-10-24T15:31:58Z")
FoieGrasIsEvil - my personal take on your Sauron question: - He didn’t appear in the books because Tolkien was not interested in evil. He was interested in the characters’ response to evil. Tolkien assumed evil was always going to be a problem in the world, so what is important is our response to it. It’s a very Catholic book. As for the films, they would have had to make up dialogue & appearance for Sauron since it wasn’t there in the books, and so thankfully they chose not to do so. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/98 "2009-10-24T15:50:59Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I’m a LOTR noob. I’ve seen all the movies and I read all the books a long time ago (I really should re-read them, it’s been a couple decades). > > Anyway: how come we never see Sauron? I mean, he’s a person, right? And since I cannot recollect, does Sauron have any dialogue in the books? Does he ever speak? I can’t recall if he’s ever seen or heard in the movies, other than that electric eye of his. > > Thanks. Well, there is the prologue in the movie, which takes all the explanation about the end of the Second Age that Gandalf gives Frodo and the reader from the chapter The Shadow of the Past and puts it right at the front of the first movie. (The rest of that chapter, dealing with Smeagol/Gollum, is given as the prologue in The Return of the King.) Otherwise, the closest we get is the Mouth of Sauron, who is just a human. I think he gets about a dozen lines in the book and doesn’t show up in the theatrical version of the movie, but just the extended cut. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/99 "2009-10-24T16:42:05Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > From Sil: > > So it seems they’re the adopted kids of Iluvatar, but Aulë was their real parent. Sort of like a grandparent adopting one of their own illegitimate grandkids. 😉 > > There may be some more notes in HOMES about what happens to the dwarves when they die, but I’ve not uncovered them yet. Even with searchable text, there’s a lot of ground to cover in HOMES. Thank you so much! **FoieGrasIsEvil** , Sauron is a Maia, as are the wizards. These are beings originally of Valinor - sort of a heaven, if you will. When Maiar come to Middle Earth, they generally take on physical bodies. Sauron has had several different physical forms over the ages, including at least one that was very pleasing to the eye. He was able to win over some Elves at one time, and some Men of Numenor (think Atlantis) at others. But the Men of Numenor envied the Elves because they were immortal, and (at Sauron’s prodding) tried to travel to Valinor to somehow seize immortality for themselves. So as punishment, Numenor was swallowed by the sea. A few Men of Numenor had remained faithful and friendly with the Elves, and they were able to escape to Middle-Earth. These included Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion. Sauron lost his physical body, but as a disembodied spirit of malevolence travelled to Middle-Earth with the Ring, eventually arising in Mordor. Elendil aligns with Gil-galad, Elven king of Gondolin (the principal Elven kingdom) and they battle against Sauron on the fields of Gladden, throwing down Sauron at the cost of their own lives. Isildur, son of Elendil, takes up his father’s sword and severs Sauron’s Ring-wearing finger and takes the Ring for his own. Note that this differs slightly from the film version, in which Sauron is not struck down until Isildur severs the finger and Ring from his body. (The film version actually seems to me to make more sense, but presumably Tolkien knew what he was about). In any case, this is the last that any good guy actually sees Sauron. The only clue we have to his appearance is from Gollum, whom Sauron apparently physically tortures to get information about the Ring. Gollum tells Frodo something along the lines of “He only has nine fingers, but they are enough.” This suggests that Sauron resumes a humanoid physical form that is to some extent dictated by previous events, since he doesn’t regenerate his finger. Real Tolkien scholars will correct me, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/100 "2009-10-24T17:11:55Z")
> [@IOMDave](#): > > One ring to rule the mall > One ring to buy them > One ring to ring them all up > And at the checkout…bag them. > > 😃 You don’t think that Bilbo and Frodo’s home being at _ **Bag End** _ was coincidental, do you? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163.md?page=6)