# How come Gandalf didn't know Bilbo had the One Ring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [October 17, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163 "2009-10-17T20:35:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/101 "2009-10-24T18:53:57Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Thank you so much! > > **FoieGrasIsEvil** , Sauron is a Maia, as are the wizards. These are beings originally of Valinor - sort of a heaven, if you will. When Maiar come to Middle Earth, they generally take on physical bodies. Sauron has had several different physical forms over the ages, including at least one that was very pleasing to the eye. He was able to win over some Elves at one time, and some Men of Numenor (think Atlantis) at others. But the Men of Numenor envied the Elves because they were immortal, and (at Sauron’s prodding) tried to travel to Valinor to somehow seize immortality for themselves. So as punishment, Numenor was swallowed by the sea. A few Men of Numenor had remained faithful and friendly with the Elves, and they were able to escape to Middle-Earth. These included Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion. Sauron lost his physical body, but as a disembodied spirit of malevolence travelled to Middle-Earth with the Ring, eventually arising in Mordor. > > Elendil aligns with Gil-galad, Elven king of Gondolin (the principal Elven kingdom) and they battle against Sauron on the fields of Gladden, throwing down Sauron at the cost of their own lives. Isildur, son of Elendil, takes up his father’s sword and severs Sauron’s Ring-wearing finger and takes the Ring for his own. Note that this differs slightly from the film version, in which Sauron is not struck down until Isildur severs the finger and Ring from his body. (The film version actually seems to me to make more sense, but presumably Tolkien knew what he was about). In any case, this is the last that any good guy actually sees Sauron. The only clue we have to his appearance is from Gollum, whom Sauron apparently physically tortures to get information about the Ring. Gollum tells Frodo something along the lines of “He only has nine fingers, but they are enough.” This suggests that Sauron resumes a humanoid physical form that is to some extent dictated by previous events, since he doesn’t regenerate his finger. > > Real Tolkien scholars will correct me, I’m sure. That is essentially correct, except that Sauron put down the one ring and presumably hid it before going to Numenor as a captive. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/102 "2009-10-24T20:01:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Does anyone know what happens to Men or Dwarves? With respect to Men, at least, the canonical answer to that question is “no”. Illuvatar alone knows what happens to Men after death; even the Valar are in the dark on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/103 "2009-10-24T20:27:27Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > That is essentially correct, except that Sauron put down the one ring and presumably hid it before going to Numenor as a captive. I believed that at one time too, but further study indicates that Sauron did indeed bring it to Numenor. More later, wifey needs me! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/104 "2009-10-24T20:33:34Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > That is essentially correct, except that Sauron put down the one ring and presumably hid it before going to Numenor as a captive. [The FAQ of the Rings dispels this misconception, with a cite to the letter in which Tolkien says what happened while the master of evilitude was on the five-pointed isle.](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Numenor) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/105 "2009-10-24T21:08:57Z")
Boy, go away to fulfill my marital duties, and **Skald** steals my thunder! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/106 "2009-10-24T22:19:14Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Boy, go away to fulfill my marital duties, and **Skald** steals my thunder! 😉 All part of the service. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/107 "2009-10-25T05:45:56Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > And since I cannot recollect, does Sauron have any dialogue in the books? Not directly, but we get a glimpse of his dialogue recounted by Pippin, after he sneaks the palantír and ends up communicating with Sauron, who thinks that it’s Saruman on the other end. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/108 "2009-10-25T13:42:40Z")
So to return to my original point, do you think that the Ring acted differently on the Dwarves because they were the adopted Children of Iluvater, originally created by Aule, and thus spiritually more grounded in the earth, and not grounded at all in the spirit world of Valinor (even though Valinor is/was a physical place)? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/109 "2009-10-25T14:33:08Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > So to return to my original point, do you think that the Ring acted differently on the Dwarves because they were the adopted Children of Iluvater, originally created by Aule, and thus spiritually more grounded in the earth, and not grounded at all in the spirit world of Valinor (even though Valinor is/was a physical place)? IMO, you’re probably tangentally right there, but are overthinking it (at elast as how I see it). Consider that, even with the wide array of psychotropic drugs available and the bizarre effects some have adulterated with each other or with other substances, and tha wide range of ways in which human brain chemistry can go awry mimicking the effects of those drugs, vanishingly few people decide they are, or would desperately long to be, tree shrews. The dwarves reacted as they did because they are dwarves, because that is the way in which Aule made them (and Iluvatar granted them independent life) – because that is part and parcel of their nature within the LOTR universe, and outside it in the archetype of what a dwarf is, on which Tolkien founded his concept. Why, in turn, that is the case is a question best left for theoretical psychologists of the Jungian school. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/110 "2009-10-25T15:31:22Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Boy, go away to fulfill my marital duties… “marital duties” - that’s what the kids are calling it these days? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/111 "2009-10-25T15:40:03Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > “marital duties” - that’s what the kids are calling it these days? I think he was paying the Visa bill online. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/112 "2009-10-25T16:03:42Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > IMO, you’re probably tangentally right there, but are overthinking it (at elast as how I see it). Consider that, even with the wide array of psychotropic drugs available and the bizarre effects some have adulterated with each other or with other substances, and tha wide range of ways in which human brain chemistry can go awry mimicking the effects of those drugs, vanishingly few people decide they are, or would desperately long to be, tree shrews. > > The dwarves reacted as they did because they are dwarves, because that is the way in which Aule made them (and Iluvatar granted them independent life) – because that is part and parcel of their nature within the LOTR universe, and outside it in the archetype of what a dwarf is, on which Tolkien founded his concept. > > Why, in turn, that is the case is a question best left for theoretical psychologists of the Jungian school. Let me see if I understand what you’re saying. You’re saying that the Dwarves react to the Ring as they do because that’s their nature/brain chemistry, not because Aule rather than Iluvater designed them? I am sincerely confused as to exactly where the tree shrews come in, but I think the point you’re trying to make is that different drugs act differently even within the human species? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/113 "2009-10-25T16:11:55Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > So to return to my original point, do you think that the Ring acted differently on the Dwarves because they were the adopted Children of Iluvater, originally created by Aule, and thus spiritually more grounded in the earth, and not grounded at all in the spirit world of Valinor (even though Valinor is/was a physical place)? I can’t really comment, other than to say you’re putting forth some hypotheses which I don’t believe have any explicit support in any of JRRT’s writings. They’re interesting hypotheses, but unless you can cite the Professor making some sort of statement indicating that the dwarves were spiritually grounded in that portion of Arda which excluded specifically the Undying Lands, I see no reason to extrapolate further from that idea of yours (other than the fun of the typical JRRT freak bull session, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/114 "2009-10-25T16:13:51Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > “marital duties” - that’s what the kids are calling it these days? Putting up shelves was that particular marital duty of the moment. And calling those of us who recall the Eisenhower administration “kids” is amusing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/115 "2009-10-25T16:24:55Z")
BTW, my review of HOMES turned up a lot of interesting tid-bits of the dwarves, but not much else about non-invisible dwarves, except in this exchange between Bingo and Gandalf: > [@](#): > > 'In the ancient days the dark master made many Rings, and he dealt them out lavishly, so that they might be spread abroad to ensnare folk. The elves had many, and there are now many elfwraiths in the world; the goblins had some and their wraiths are very evil and wholly under the command of the Lord. **The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible**. In them it only kindled to flames the fire of greed, and the foundation of each of the seven hoards of the Dwarves of old was a golden ring. In this way the master controlled them. But these hoards are destroyed, and the dragons have devoured them, and the rings are melted, or so some say. > > Men had three rings, and others they found in secret places cast away by the elf-wraiths: the men-wraiths are servants of the Lord, and they brought all their rings back to him; till at last he had gathered all into his hands again that had not been destroyed by fire - all save one. Return of the Shadow, III Of Gollum and the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/116 "2009-10-25T20:43:56Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > > “marital duties” - that’s what the kids are calling it these days? > > Putting up shelves was that particular marital duty of the moment. > > And calling those of us who recall the Eisenhower administration “kids” is amusing. 😃 well, at least Mrs Qadgop didn’t ask if you had not forgot to wind up the clock… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/117 "2009-10-25T21:31:22Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Let me see if I understand what you’re saying. You’re saying that the Dwarves react to the Ring as they do because that’s their nature/brain chemistry, not because Aule rather than Iluvater designed them? > > I am sincerely confused as to exactly where the tree shrews come in, but I think the point you’re trying to make is that different drugs act differently even within the human species? I guess what I was trying to say is: 1. Dwarves react differently to Rings than Elves or Men because they are Dwarves, with Dwarvish psychology rather than Elvish or Mannish. It’s a product of their nature. 2. IMO (and I could of course be wrong), the fact that Dwarves are adopted Children of Iluvatar rather than His direct creations as Elves and Men are, has nothing directly to do with that difference – Men and Elves behave distnctly from each other, as also do Dwarves. The differences are attributable simply to the different psychologies of the three Kindreds, and not to the differences in their origins. 3. The nature of Tolkien’s dwarves were founded on that of Nordic dwarves, which appear to be an archetype. The divergence in origins does not extend back into the mythical/legendary source material. 4. There was a logic behind the tree shrew comment – something like, no matter how differently different people react to the same or similar stimuli, there are some consistencies across the spectrum of reactions, some things that no or extremely few people will evince as reactions. However, the exact point I was trying to make in setting up the analogy escapes me now, and in rereading it, it seems to be mildly dismissive of your point, for which I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/118 "2009-10-26T00:37:02Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > …Elendil aligns with Gil-galad, Elven king of Gondolin (the principal Elven kingdom)… Gondolin had fallen by that time. Gil-Galad was the last of the High Kings of the Noldor, which included the survivors of Gondolin. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/119 "2009-10-26T02:23:32Z")
Gondolin was more or less the Switzerland of Beleriand – a valley surrounded by high mountains that were kept guarded, and hence held out the longest of the Elvish kingdoms against Morgoth during the First Age. Its king was Turgon. Gil-Galad was territorially King of Lindon, the Great Britain-shaped coastal area where the Grey Havens (Mithlond) were. Lindon was the sole surviving piece of Beleriand after its destruction in the Battle of the Valar at the end of the Silmarillion proper. He was also heir to the High Kingship of the Noldor after Maedhros perished. Only he, Celebrimbor, and Galadriel remained in Middle Earth of the House of Finwe, the royal house of the Noldor after the First Age. Celebrimbor perished with his Kingdom of Eregion (Hollin) in the War of the Elves and Sauron, which was somewhere near the middle of the Second Age. When Gil-Galad _decessit sine progene_ at the end of the Second Age, only Galadriel was left. She was acknowledged as Lady of the Noldor, but did not claim to be Queen. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/120 "2009-10-26T02:36:34Z")
> [@](#): > > She was acknowledged as Lady of the Noldor, but did not claim to be Queen. Of course not; she was a king. “Two rings for the Elven-Kings and one for the Elven-Queen under the sky” just doesn’t scan right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163.md?page=7)