# How come Gandalf didn't know Bilbo had the One Ring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [October 17, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163 "2009-10-17T20:35:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/121 "2009-10-26T02:41:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of course not; she was a king. “Two rings for the Elven-Kings and one for the Elven-Queen under the sky” just doesn’t scan right. There is certainly British precedent for it: > **[Lord of Mann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Mann)** > > The Lord of Mann (Manx: Çhiarn Vannin) is the lord proprietor and head of state of the Isle of Man, currently King Charles III. Before 1504, the title was King of Mann. > Since 1399, the kings and lords of Mann were vassals of the kings of England who were the ultimate sovereigns of the island. This right of 'lord proprietor' was revested into the Crown by the Isle of Man Purchase Act 1765 for £70,000 and a £2,000 annuity, at which point it became a self-governing British Crown Dependency. King... > **[Duke of Normandy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Normandy)** > > In the Middle Ages, the duke of Normandy was the ruler of the Duchy of Normandy. The duchy arose out of a grant of land to the Viking leader Rollo by the French king Charles the Simple in 911. In 924 and again in 933, Normandy was expanded by royal grant. Rollo's male-line descendants continued to rule it until 1135, and cognatic descendants ruled it until 1204. In 1202 the French king Philip II declared Normandy a forfeited fief and by 1204 his army had conquered it (with the exception of th... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/122 "2009-10-26T09:02:19Z")
Another question that bugs me is this. Does Aragorn have the Ius Primae Noctis? ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/123 "2009-10-26T13:05:31Z")
> [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](#): > > Another question that bugs me is this. Does Aragorn have the Ius Primae Noctis? With Arwen only. [QUOTE=QtM] They’re interesting hypotheses, but unless you can cite the Professor making some sort of statement indicating that the dwarves were spiritually grounded in that portion of Arda which excluded specifically the Undying Lands, I see no reason to extrapolate further from that idea of yours (other than the fun of the typical JRRT freak bull session, anyway). [/QUOTE] Based on the Ring FAQ, I was just trying to figure out why the great rings behaved so differently between the various races. I figured that the Elves didn’t turn invisible because they had been to Valinor, and thus sort of already had one foot in the spiritual world. This breaks down for Elrond, admittedly, but wasn’t he a descendant of Earendil? Or am I confused (it wouldn’t be the first time)? The Dwarves are very different, and I figured some of that difference has got to be because they were created by Aule. Except for Gimli, they have no connection with Valinor, which is as close to the “spirit world” as I can wrap my head around. But they’re _very_ connected with the earth (i.e. Middle-Earth). Men, too, have no connection with Valinor, and Numenor was very difinitely not spiritual, so all I could figure was that Men can connect to the spirit world via the great rings because they were Children of Iluvater. [QUOTE=JRRT via QtM] ‘In the ancient days the dark master made many Rings, and he dealt them out lavishly, so that they might be spread abroad to ensnare folk. The elves had many, and there are now many elfwraiths in the world; the goblins had some and their wraiths are very evil and wholly under the command of the Lord.’ [/QUOTE] I’m not sure how cannonical we can consider HOMES, but the idea that Elves could be wraithified throws my entire idea into chaos. It suggests that invisibility and wraithification are not connected, since the Elves are not turned invisible by the great rings, yet apparently can become wraiths. Also, goblin ring-wraiths?!? Please understand, I’ve never participated in a typical JRRT freak bull session; the only discussions I’ve ever had were here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/124 "2009-10-26T13:56:53Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > …since the Elves are not turned invisible by the great rings… Is that true though? I always took it the the great rings could turn anyone invisible, but that the elves and Gandalf had sufficient control over their rings to choose whether to use that power or not. That’s based on a few things. Firstly LoTR says that the only being the one has no power over is Bombadil and the council of Elrond seemed to deduce that from the fact that he didn’t turn invisible when he wore it. Which suggests that the One, at least, would have turned an elf invisible. Secondly Sauron was visible while wearing the one, which tells us that those who have command of the great rings can turn the invisibility power on and off. Thirdly, the elven rings were all themselves invisible when the wearers wished them to be, and visible when they didn’t care to hide them. Which suggests that the extent of their invisibility inducing powers could be moderated by those who could control them. Finally Gandalf states that only the great rings grant invisibility, and that it is only with full control that the other powers are availability Nothing concrete in their I admit, but it all suggests that the great rings can all turn their users invisible, but that the invisibility inducing powers can be turned on and off if the wearer can control the ring fully. If that is true then their’s no reason to believe that anybody except Bombadil is immune to that invisibility effect. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/125 "2009-10-26T14:11:42Z")
I’m going by the [FAQ](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm) that were cited earlier in this thread, specifically question A2. This source is good enough for **Qadgop the Mercotan** to cite, so it’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/126 "2009-10-26T14:22:57Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Putting up shelves was that particular marital duty of the moment. > > And calling those of us who recall the Eisenhower administration “kids” is amusing. 😃 “Putting up shelves” is that what the geezers are calling it nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/127 "2009-10-26T18:33:24Z")
Remember that Sauron never touched the three rings. Not only was he involved in the manufacture of the others, he was able to gather them up and redistribute them, perhaps after messing with their properties a bit: “all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making.” Invisibility/wraithification could be part of that perversion. So it’s not surprising that the elven rings have different properties than the others. There is no reason to assume that they would have made invisible or wraithified anyone who wore them. I’m sort of sorry that Tolkien abandoned the idea of elf-wraiths and goblin-wraiths. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/128 "2009-10-26T18:40:02Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > “Putting up shelves” is that what the geezers are calling it nowadays? Yep! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/129 "2009-10-26T20:42:15Z")
Further thought on the Dwarves: Humans and elves are, perhaps, spirits given bodies, while dwarves are definitely bodies given spirits. So a human or elf wearing a Ring would appear as a spirit (that is to say, not at all, to most eyes), but a dwarf wearing a Ring would appear as an earthy automaton (that is to say, just like a dwarf, to most eyes). ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/130 "2009-10-26T21:32:41Z")
I always thought it was interesting that for at least Galadriel, a Ring _itself_ could become invisible. Note the conversation immediately after Frodo looks in Galadriel’s Mirror. Frodo notices her ring because “as Ringbearer and as one that had borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight has grown keener”, where Sam could not see her Ring at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/131 "2009-10-26T22:48:32Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > And calling those of us who recall the Eisenhower administration “kids” is amusing. 😃 Hey, if you can recall the Eisenhower administration and you’re still taking time out to boff the wife, more power to you! I was born in the Eisenhower administration, but don’t recall it. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/132 "2009-10-27T00:25:14Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > I was born in the Eisenhower administration, but don’t recall it. I was politically aware before I was fully potty-trained. After hearing Ike talk about his concerns about the military-industrial complex, I got concerned about my own plastic army men. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/133 "2009-10-27T00:56:21Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I was politically aware before I was fully potty-trained. Yeah, me too. My earliest political memory is seeing JFK on TV, possibly during the missile crisis. The earliest event I can definitely date was November 22, 1963, when I was in first grade. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/134 "2009-10-27T01:12:05Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I got concerned about my own plastic army men. 😉 I don’t recall much about my plastic army men; firecrackers, bottle rockets or a blow torch. I know there was something where they melted like candle wax. I bet Sauron did that with halflings, however he spelled it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/135 "2009-10-27T03:14:43Z")
My earliest political memory would be being worried about some nuclear crisis or another, early in the Reagan administration. Which would put me at probably around 4 (_after_ I was potty-trained, mind you). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/136 "2009-10-27T03:19:55Z")
I remember seeing Eisenhower waving from a hospital window, but I also remember seeing a Russian tank on TV in East Germany or Hungary, and wondering why Daddy didn’t call them on the phone and tell them to stop. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/137 "2009-10-27T10:44:54Z")
Next thing you know, all y’alls will be talking about walking uphill to school through mountains of snow, both ways. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/138 "2009-10-27T13:28:12Z")
Fighting trolls as they went… ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/139 "2009-10-27T14:35:23Z")
My earliest political memory is the Kennedy-Nixon debate, and being as glad as a four-year-old can be about such things that Kennedy had “won.” But I believe that I hated Nixon in the womb, as that would have been shortly after the HUAC years. [QUOTE=Chronos] Further thought on the Dwarves: Humans and elves are, perhaps, spirits given bodies, while dwarves are definitely bodies given spirits. So a human or elf wearing a Ring would appear as a spirit (that is to say, not at all, to most eyes), but a dwarf wearing a Ring would appear as an earthy automaton (that is to say, just like a dwarf, to most eyes). [/QUOTE] OK, that’s the kind of thing I was trying to get to (and failing miserably). That makes sense to me. Thanks, **Chronos**. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163/140 "2009-10-28T11:34:45Z")
It never said anywhere all rings made invisible. The one ring made men and hobbits invisible, but wasn’t that sort of a side effect? Because it gave power relative to its wearer and a hobbit with a ring would be like a duck with a gun (utterly unable to use any of its real power). And apart from the twenty rings of power, it could have been a lesser ring (because it was seemingly unadorned). The three rings never seem to make their wearers invisible. Also, I feel people are taking the whole “other (spirit) world” thing very literally here. It’s not the matrix. It’s a different plain of consciousness that we mortals can touch by means of (evil) magic but never completely grasp type of thing, IMHO. Another question - the ring wraiths. They’re permanently invisible. How do they shave? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-gandalf-didnt-know-bilbo-had-the-one-ring/514163.md?page=8)