# How come people feared "dragons" long before they knew of dinosaurs?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251>\
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion\
**Created:** [December 22, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251 "2008-12-22T01:12:58Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/21 "2008-12-22T16:23:19Z")

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The Chinese didn’t fear dragons – they were signs of good luck.

As for the origin, it’s generally believed that the Chinese dragon was created accidentally. Various small tribes would have an animal symbol. Often the tribes would unite, and add features from both their symbols. Thus, a tribe who has a snake as a symbol might unite with a tribe that had a bird or bat. The result would be a winged snake. And, as time went on, other tribes joined in, adding parts of their symbolic creature to the mix. The result changed due to this and due to artistic license until it became a dragon.

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**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/22 "2008-12-22T18:59:31Z")

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**RealityChuck** , I’m not casting doubt when I ask for a cite, I’m just intrigued with this theory and want to read more about it. Can you direct me?

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**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/23 "2008-12-22T19:11:43Z")

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Maybe there were dragons.

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**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/24 "2008-12-22T19:59:53Z")

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> [@Maastricht](#):
>
> So, why are the major land monsters dragons? Why not giant rats, giant stone zombies, or any other variant of “giant, evil version of an everyday thing/beastie”?

The [giant guinea pigs](http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/189991/?tab=related) just don’t have that same _je ne sais pas_ we’ve come to expect in a massive terror-inspiring beast.

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**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/25 "2008-12-22T20:14:07Z")

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I traveled back in time and showed Jurrasic Park on my protable DVD player to a bunch of primative people.

Sorry

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**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/26 "2008-12-22T20:31:29Z")

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> [@Rigamarole](#):
>
> The [giant guinea pigs](http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/189991/?tab=related) just don’t have that same _je ne sais pas_ we’ve come to expect in a massive terror-inspiring beast.

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069005/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069005/)

A whole horror movie featuring giant killer bunnies!

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**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/27 "2008-12-22T20:54:13Z")

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I think it’s possible that some large, possibly even flying reptiles/Saurians survived into human times.  
In the Big Bend area of Texas, for instance, the Indians carved depictions of flying, dragon-like creatures on walls and had legends of the beasts swooping down and taking humans and animals as prey.

Now, maybe pure fantasy or maybe they found some of the remains of the flying saurians which DID inhabit this area based on the fossil evidence, or maybe, just maybe, the extinction of these creatures wasn’t as complete as currently thought, and some small, isolated populations survived much longer, long enough to enter into the human collective memory.

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**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/28 "2008-12-22T22:30:15Z")

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> [@InterestedObserver](#):
>
> …maybe, just maybe, the extinction of these creatures wasn’t as complete as currently thought, and some small, isolated populations survived much longer, long enough to enter into the human collective memory.

Unless/until some remains are found, I don’t think this theory will get strong support.

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**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/29 "2008-12-22T22:32:05Z")

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> [@InterestedObserver](#):
>
> … the extinction of these creatures wasn’t as complete as currently thought, and some small, isolated populations survived much longer, long enough to enter into the human collective memory.

That’s what I thought.  
That, or Jung is onto something with his [collective unconscious](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious).

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**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\
**Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/30 "2008-12-22T22:46:01Z")

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> [@Maastricht](#):
>
> Why giant versions of the humble shy little green lizard that catches flies on the rocks beside the road and is no threat whatsever to any human?

The popular image of a dragon today is based on a 20th Century reinterpretation of lots of monsters feared and mythologised in the past. Dragon is a generic term for monster, and they came in many forms, though there were undoubtedly common factors. I don’t think you can say they were particularly lizard-based, though.

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**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/31 "2008-12-23T05:06:20Z")

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I would agree with, but actually go further than, **CalMeachem** and **GuanoLad**.

As I have suggested in [earlier](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7569104#post7569104) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10069302#post10069302) addressing this topic, I supect that we, (_i.e._, Europeans), have imposed the word “dragon” on a wide variety of critters in other cultures that share only the single characteristic of being vaguely serpentine. Rather than some creature inspiring legends in multiple cultures, (or even a few creatures inspiring different related beasts in several cultures), I think that it is more likely that a lot of different cultures imagined a lot of different beasts and exploring Europeans happened to tie together anything that was serpent shaped under the name of “dragon.” Something similar has happened with the names “phoenix” and “unicorn.” Europeans have translated the names of several Chinese mythical beasts as “unicorn,” based on the single fact that they are frequently described as having one horn, even though none of them much resemble the unicorn of Ctesias. Similarly, the original phoenix of Egypt was described resembling a heron, but the Greeks changed the description to resemble an eagle and Europeans then translated the name of a somewhat eagle shaped bird in Chinese mythology as “phoenix,” even though the Chinese critter was much more of a chimaera, looking nothing like a heron.

I think we make too much of the “dragon” connection among various cultures because it appears to be nothing more than the cultural imposition of a name on a wide variety of beasts that shared only one similar characteristic.

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**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/32 "2008-12-23T09:24:06Z")

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> [@InterestedObserver](#):
>
> I think it’s possible that some large, possibly even flying reptiles/Saurians survived into human times [snip]… maybe, just maybe, the extinction of these creatures wasn’t as complete as currently thought, and some small, isolated populations survived much longer, long enough to enter into the human collective memory.

Not a chance. An isolated population surviving a thousand years past a major extinction event – I’ll grant that. A hundred thousand years? Maybe, but in that time the population would be very unlikely to remain small and isolated – they’d have either died out or re-expanded into former niches.

Sixty five million years of edge-of-extinction equilibrium? No. Simply no.

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**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/33 "2008-12-23T10:01:29Z")

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For some reason this [abomination](http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/bible/dino.html) of a website came to mind as soon as I saw the thread title.

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**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/34 "2008-12-23T10:10:34Z")

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> [@TimeWinder](#):
>
> Sixty five million years…

I think that’s something most people find hard to quantify. It’s only recently that I really took the time (only a few seconds, really) to consider just how long it’s been since dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and it’s an unbelievably long time. I can’t even imagine it.

Come to that, the period the dinosaurs existed is hundreds of times longer than humans have even existed in a recognisable form.

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**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/35 "2008-12-23T10:27:34Z")

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Does anyone want to comment on [this](http://paranormal.about.com/od/ancientanomalies/ig/Most-Puzzling-Ancient-Artifact/Impossible-Fossils.htm), then? Is there not even the slightest possibility that there are real finds indicating humans have been around much longer than anyone ever thought? And what difference would it make to our way of thinking, if it was true?

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**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/36 "2008-12-23T14:18:55Z")

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> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Does anyone want to comment on [this](http://paranormal.about.com/od/ancientanomalies/ig/Most-Puzzling-Ancient-Artifact/Impossible-Fossils.htm), then? Is there not even the slightest possibility that there are real finds indicating humans have been around much longer than anyone ever thought? And what difference would it make to our way of thinking, if it was true?

I went through that “cryptopaleontology” phase as a teenager. It would be just so cool if it were true. Problem is, the proof just isn’t there. A lot of these claims get repeated indefinitely but if you go back to the original source, you discover that there’s less there than meets the eye. For example, the widely quoted “sandal print”. If you actually track down a photo of the supposed print, you see a roughly bean-shaped oval that almost certainly is the impression of a clam shell. The human hand print might be in 110 million year old limestone- that’s how old the **stone** is, not necessarily how old the print is, in fairly soft easily carvable limestone. One time I saw a photo allegedly proving that the Earth was hollow by showing the “light” from the inner sun- it was an overexposed satellite photo showing the polar ice cap. Moral of the story, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

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**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\
**Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/37 "2008-12-24T07:23:31Z")

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> [@GuanoLad](#):
>
> I think that’s something most people find hard to quantify. It’s only recently that I really took the time (only a few seconds, really) to consider just how long it’s been since dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and it’s an unbelievably long time. I can’t even imagine it.

Wait, it was 65 million years when I was kid, so by now it must be… shit.

We’re not very significant, are we?

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**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\
**Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/38 "2008-12-24T15:36:57Z")

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> [@Maastricht](#):
>
> Medieval Europe, Ancient China…all of them have myths about dragons. Dragons that fit the description of dinsaurs just a little too well. Yet, in everyday life, these people didn’t have any beasts to base the image on. The discovery of the first dinosaur fossils were still centuries in the future.
> 
> Okay, so they had lizards crawling on rocks and walls. But from a lizard to a dragon is a really big step. It would have been far more likely for those people in antiquity, if they had wanted to come up with a monster based on the exaggeration of an every day pest, to come up with monsters based on giant spiders, or giant snakes, or giant rats. Yet none of those are as prevalent as the myths about dragons.
> 
> How come? Any ideas?

It is all speculation of course. But I assume that dragons and dinosaurs are the same. That is, dinosaur bones were surely discovered on occasion. Without an understanding of geological time, people would assume that such large and unknown creatures existed somewhere. Combine that with stories about [Komodo dragons](http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/reptiles/komodo-dragon.html)  
and viola-fire breathing flying (a leap certainly but it makes for a good story). The Komodo certainly has aspects of a flying, fire-breathing, terrible lizard. It hides in the tall grass and strikes suddenly, so someone might guess the strike came from above, the bite causes such severe infection that within a day or two the wound probably looks like a burn. And they are so remote that the story would be wildly distorted by the time it was recorded by the chinese/arabs.

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**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\
**Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/39 "2008-12-24T15:47:01Z")

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**.**

That’s five thousand years. From the present back to the eariest Egyptian and Sumerian civilizations. Pretty much all of recorded history. Here’s ten thousand years-

**:**

Here’s how long since the Cretaceous extinction event:

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-give or take a few dots.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\
**Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-people-feared-dragons-long-before-they-knew-of-dinosaurs/478251/40 "2008-12-25T19:57:33Z")

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> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> Maybe there were dragons.

I agree with this. Occam’s razor, right? _Right??_

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