# How common are non-arbitrary women's clothes sizes? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140 "2012-03-29T12:46:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/21 "2012-03-29T17:19:54Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Another rant: the same piece of clothing in different colors have different sizes. No kidding. I ran into this a few week’s ago, trying on jeans. Had one pair in a light denim, another in dark denim, both the same brand, same style, same size. The light blue ones fit; the dark blue were too small. WTF?!? Ooh! I know - pick me! This happens as a result of mass production. They don’t cut out each pair of pants, say, to a specific size; that’d take too long and be too expensive. Instead, they load up a machine with like 20 layers of denim and cut through all the layers at once. The ones on top end up a bit smaller while the ones on bottom are a bit larger, making a size 10 really represent a range rather than specific measurements. It’s maddening, but it also makes clothes affordable. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/22 "2012-03-29T17:56:07Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > If you’re a 36B for example, no fuss, no worries. You find your size, it fits, the end. Oh, would that it were so. I’m often a 36B, but sometimes I’m a 36A or a 34B, and most of the time, I’m a 23SkiddooFuckThisShit, depending on the manufacturer, the style and cut of the bra, the type of material, and possibly, whether Mercury is in retrograde. I hate shopping for bras even more than I hate shopping for pants. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I know, body image issues most certainly are _not_ a generational thing (though it’d be nice if that kind of thing were on its way out), but this idea of not wanting to wear jeans larger than size 6 strikes me as… outdated. I had the same thought, and it occurs to me, maybe part of why younger women aren’t all hung up on sizes is _because_ of vanity sizing gone amok. Since we know it’s all random bullshit anyway, there’s no pride in wearing a “smaller” size, especially when the item is measurably larger than another one we own in a “bigger” size. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/23 "2012-03-29T18:50:47Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Do you mind if I ask how old you are? I’m in my 40’s; Mom is in her 70’s. However, this attitude is all over certain fashion-related message boards that I visit (leading to the inevitable sniping that it’s just not possible that 85% of the posters are a size 0). There’s also a great reluctance among all but the thinnest women to actually measure themselves. I hear these attitudes every day on line and in person. I admit that my crowd is 30’s - 50’s, so maybe there is a younger generation that feels differently. If so, maybe things will eventually change. ---
**Author:** ![MN\_Maenad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MN\_Maenad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MN_Maenad)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/24 "2012-03-29T19:22:17Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > I personally hate how so many jeans are either Short (Petite), Average, or Tall. Heaven help you if your inseam falls somewhere between those arbitrary parameters. Find thee a tailor. I have a 33-inch inseam. Most Tall inseams are at least 34 inches, so every new pair of pants visits the tailor. Granted, all of my pants are then $5 - $10 more expensive, but it looks much more polished. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/25 "2012-03-29T19:35:23Z")
Sizes really depend on the manufacturerdon’t they? and if you are shopping in Jr’s (twig)misses (twig with boobs), womans(no twigs) or plus (breaking twigs). 😉 I have a tape measure and count inches :eek: Helps tremendously when shopping online to actually know what sizes their clothes fit. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/26 "2012-03-29T19:52:23Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I know, body image issues most certainly are _not_ a generational thing (though it’d be nice if that kind of thing were on its way out), but this idea of not wanting to wear jeans larger than size 6 strikes me as… outdated. For me, it’s very tied to body image. When I started to go from the high-side of normal weight to fat, it was hard watching that number creep up. And now that i’m unquestionably fat, a lower number makes me feel less disgusting and ugly and like a failure than a higher number does. It isn’t rational, but it’s there. So to the OP’s questions juniors (teen) sizes are usually odd numbers. misses (grown up) sizes are usually even numbers. the difference between juniors & misses is in how they’re cut - even if someone’s waist, hip, and bust measurements are the same when she’s 17 and when she’s 45, the contents will likely have shifted over time. Most brands have a sizing chart. These are more or less kind of accurate. Some brands have their very own sizing and bear no resemblance to any other brand. They don’t. Custom fitted clothes are expensive - and as such not all that common. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/27 "2012-03-29T20:14:10Z")
> [@MN\_Maenad](#): > > Find thee a tailor. I have a 33-inch inseam. Most Tall inseams are at least 34 inches, so every new pair of pants visits the tailor. Granted, all of my pants are then $5 - $10 more expensive, but it looks much more polished. I have a sewing machine and I know how to use it. I just find it absurd that every pair of jeans in my closet are “Average”, and the lengths are all over the place. Would it really be that big an issue to sell women’s pants by inseam also? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/28 "2012-03-29T22:45:36Z")
Men’s jeans tend to come in just a few styles by store, and men tend to buy jeans as a staple, and don’t want the style to change from one year to the next. Women’s jeans are very much a fashion item, and what is hot one year is stale the next year. So women’s jeans tend to come in a basic length, and if you’re lucky, a petite length, because where the men’s jeans have five styles available, the women’s jeans will have 20 or more. Very occasionally, a manufacturer will offer a tall length as well. Manufacturers and retailers generally just want to offer the most common sizes, and not worry about people who fall outside the most common sizes. So anyone who has uncommonly wide feet, for instance, will have to accept one of the two styles of shoes that a store might carry, if we want shoes at all. Never mind the style or color, we’ve got Ugly Chartreuse Roman sandals, or Ugly Fuschia Sheepskin Booties, and nothing in between. Go ahead and ask me why I wear sandals most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Woo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@Dr.Woo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Woo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/29 "2012-03-30T00:50:17Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > The truth is that there are a enough women (I’m looking at you, Mom) who only want to wear sizes below a certain number, that it really does make a difference in sales. For a lot of women, if they can fit into an 8 at Jill’s dress shop, but have to wear a 12 at Jack’s, they will shop at Jill’s because they will feel better about themselves. Having grown up shopping with my Mom, it took me a long time to get to the point where I choose clothing based on fit rather than number. > > This is the reason behind Chico’s unusual sizing as well. I admit I enjoy wearing size 1.5 pants, even if I have no idea what it actually means. You know, I get that, and I have to admit I feel better when the tag says a smaller size. But if that’s the reason manufacturers do it, why don’t ALL of them do it? Why does The Gap, for example, want to take the chance that I won’t buy my size 8 jeans from them because I can get size 6 jeans from some other manufacturer that fit? In fact, if we take that to the point of absurdity (my favorite thing to do when discussing women’s clothing), ALL manufacturers would drop their positive integer bias and start sizing their stuff -3, -2, -1. And the really expensive high-fashion brands are sized REALLY small. I would wear (if I bought that crap) the equivalent of a size XL in BCBG and Bebe, while I wear a size XS at JJill. **Dung** is right. They’re just evil. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/30 "2012-03-30T01:00:23Z")
> [@Dr.Woo](#): > > You know, I get that, and I have to admit I feel better when the tag says a smaller size. But if that’s the reason manufacturers do it, why don’t ALL of them do it? Why does The Gap, for example, want to take the chance that I won’t buy my size 8 jeans from them because I can get size 6 jeans from some other manufacturer that fit? In fact, if we take that to the point of absurdity (my favorite thing to do when discussing women’s clothing), ALL manufacturers would drop their positive integer bias and start sizing their stuff -3, -2, -1. > > And the really expensive high-fashion brands are sized REALLY small. I would wear (if I bought that crap) the equivalent of a size XL in BCBG and Bebe, while I wear a size XS at JJill. That’s what I don’t get. I get wanting to appeal to a woman’s vanity so I understand why some in some manufacturer’s sizes (like J. Crew mentioned above, and The Gap) I’m a size six instead of an eight as I am in the vast majority of companies’ sizing. I\*\* don’t\*\* get why I’m a size ten or even twelve in a handful of maker’s clothes. Shouldn’t making women feel fatter be detrimental to sales? ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/31 "2012-03-30T01:19:51Z")
Preach on! It is really all about vanity sizing. Within about an inch an each measurement, I’m the same size I was when I was 19. After kids, I am squishier. That was in the early 90s, and I was pretty much a stock 6, maybe an 8 if they were still mom Jeans. Now even my favorite brands have succumbed and I caught myself finding a 4 was too big. Banana Republic, you’re not fooling anyone! To me, bras are getting more standardized since the whole ‘get yourself measured’ movement. For me, tailoring is reserved for business suits. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/32 "2012-03-30T02:50:05Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > Ooh! I know - pick me! This happens as a result of mass production. They don’t cut out each pair of pants, say, to a specific size; that’d take too long and be too expensive. Instead, they load up a machine with like 20 layers of denim and cut through all the layers at once. The ones on top end up a bit smaller while the ones on bottom are a bit larger, making a size 10 really represent a range rather than specific measurements. One of my aunts worked for years in the fashion industry, and this is what she said too. She also said that a particular style of pants (or whatever) from the same brand could be produced at different factories, sometimes even in different countries, so it’s impossible to maintain perfect consistency. With jeans or other items made of fabric with some “stretch”, two truly identical items could fit differently in the store depending on how many people have already tried them on. Most of us have probably experienced jeans that felt a bit too tight right after they were washed, but loosened up after being worn for a little while. Well, if several other people have tried on the same pair of jeans it can have the same effect. ETA: FWIW there are countries that use a women’s sizing system that’s at least _supposed_ to be non-arbitrary. In Japan and I believe in much of Europe they label women’s clothing with the bust and hip measurement in centimeters. I don’t know how accurate this is, though – there’s bound to be some variation for the mass-production reasons described above. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/33 "2012-03-30T02:52:18Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > That’s what I don’t get. I get wanting to appeal to a woman’s vanity so I understand why some in some manufacturer’s sizes (like J. Crew mentioned above, and The Gap) I’m a size six instead of an eight as I am in the vast majority of companies’ sizing. I\*\* don’t\*\* get why I’m a size ten or even twelve in a handful of maker’s clothes. Shouldn’t making women feel fatter be detrimental to sales? For high end lines (or those that want to emulate them), this is about maintaining a stylish and exclusive image. Basically, they don’t want fatties wearing their clothes; they want (young) (pretty) thin women wearing their clothes. It’s quite possible that a line’s largest size will be a 12, _and_ their size 12 runs much smaller than most other lines (so their size 12 is worn by someone who _generally_ wears a size 8). Would expanding their sizes increase their customer base? Quite possibly, but it gets away from the demographics they want to target. Thinness is still a societal ideal (particularly so in the beauty and fashion industries) and is consciously or subconsciously connected to positive descriptors (elegant, chic, beautiful) while fatness has connections to the opposite (sloppy, ugly, lazy)\*. By restricting their size range, they remain exclusive and associate themselves with the positive descriptors by proxy. - Disclaimer that I am not endorsing or supporting this or saying that 100% of people feel this way, but it’s applicable to the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/34 "2012-03-30T05:19:28Z")
Back when I was working in a woman’s clothing store, the owner/buyer approached Frederik’s of Hollywood about making their styles in larger sizes. Nope, said Freddy, we don’t want any fat chicks wearing OUR clothes, fat chicks aren’t sexy and have no business trying to be sexy. Freddy has changed his mind, though, and now sells plus size lingerie and clothing. ---
**Author:** ![spunkymuzicnote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@spunkymuzicnote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spunkymuzicnote)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/35 "2012-03-30T20:02:17Z")
> [@chela](#): > > I have a tape measure and count inches :eek: > > Helps tremendously when shopping online to actually know what sizes their clothes fit. I LOVE this idea. I’m getting a retractable tape measure, measuring my wardrobe, and taking it with me the next time I have to go shopping. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/36 "2012-04-21T14:56:08Z")
After this morning, I fully agree with the people who contend that having actual measurements probably wouldn’t help. I bought a three pack of women’s tee shirts, and dickered between a medium and large because the package gives the bust measurement for medium as 36-37," and I’m a fraction over 37". I went with medium figuring it’d be a tiny bit tight across the chest. Oh no. I put one on and it’s way too big, even across the chest. Oh well, maybe they’ll shrink in the wash… ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/37 "2012-04-21T15:52:14Z")
Men’s waist sizes often vary wildly from their stated size as well [article about this](http://lifehacker.com/5632726/why-you-shouldnt-rely-on-clothing-for-actual-waist-measurements) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/38 "2012-04-21T16:32:37Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > For a lot of women, if they can fit into an 8 at Jill’s dress shop, but have to wear a 12 at Jack’s, they will shop at Jill’s because they will feel better about themselves. I’m not naming any names, but I have had this discussion with someone who I thought was rational. “Oh, I like the Such-and-Such boutique. There I am a size 6!” Me: “You’re the same size no matter what store you are standing in. What difference does it make if you buy it somewhere else?” Her: “But there I’m a size 6!” Me: “But your size doesn’t change unless your fashion designer is Julius Heisenberg.” Her: “Don’t be ridiculous!” _Le sigh._ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dragoncat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@dragoncat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dragoncat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/39 "2012-04-21T23:20:48Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Re: bras. … > If you’re a 36B for example, no fuss, no worries. You find your size, it fits, the end. Once you start getting booby, fuck it. Bra shopping will be just as maddening and inconsistent as jeans shopping. I am a 36B and bra shopping is impossible for me. Well, I measure at a 36B but they tend to be too big for me, so perhaps according to them I’m between an A and a B, and they don’t sell bras that small. It is totally not true that people with smaller boobs have an easy time bra shopping. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140/40 "2012-04-22T01:00:15Z")
All of the above. I do not wear trousers or jeans AT ALL, for this reason. I don’t own any. It’s just not worth the effort. I wear skirts and stretchy dresses and I never look at the size when I shop, ha! Only bras I really have to look at the size and try on a thousand. I own cups B-D, it makes no sense. There is apparently proper research into size inflation, my flatmate was telling me. Basically, what used to be 8 is now 10, it’s gone up across the board. That’s on top of the crazy randomness, just to make it more confusing. Genuinely, the biggest incentive I can think of to buy a lottery ticket is that if I won I would have all my clothes made and I would never have to shop again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-are-non-arbitrary-womens-clothes-sizes/617140.md?page=3)