# How common is the misuse of the word "apogee" to refer to the midday sun? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 22, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648 "2014-04-22T02:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/1 "2014-04-22T02:04:13Z")
So, I used a word wrong. The sun at its highest point in the midday sky: I used the word “apogee”. Then I looked it up and found out I was wrong. So, I guess I’ll have to change it. Wondering though: Did I just completely pull that out of my ass, or is it a common misuse of the word? _IF_ it is a common enough misuse of the word, is it common enough to qualify as an informal alternate meaning? A charming colloquial? Through searches, I was able to find more than a few examples of people misusing the word in the same way that I misused it. What’s the consensus here: A valid case where the technical meaning and the common usage are at odds? Or just plain wrong and ignorant? (I’m trying to salvage an otherwise decent lyric!) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/2 "2014-04-22T02:16:18Z")
It has some poetic validity, just not technical validity. As a song lyric, why not? Surely we’ve all heard worse! ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/3 "2014-04-22T02:32:48Z")
The word “apogee” is rarely used in spoken English in the US unless the user is an astronomer (an amateur or a professional),an astrophysicist or someone involved in the space programs. It’s more a literary word than one used in daily speech. If you used it incorrectly (or even correctly) most people would either ask you its meaning or simply listen to what you are saying later in the sentence to see if they could infer it. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/4 "2014-04-22T03:02:25Z")
I thought it was zenith. I would know apogee was a proper word to do with orbit but not able to say what it meant. Unless I misheard it as _épée_. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/5 "2014-04-22T03:02:27Z")
The word that describes the sun at its highest point in the sky is “zenith,” btw. If you need it to rhyme with something that “apogee” rhymed with before, you could try _“nith of zee.”_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/6 "2014-04-22T03:04:05Z")
What would be the correct word to use? Zenith? (ETA: Okay, ninja’ed by the above two posters.) I can never remember apogee vs. perigee anyway. Are there many other people here likewise? ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/7 "2014-04-22T03:14:46Z")
No, zenith is the point 90 degrees directly above you. The Sun never gets there unless you’re in the tropics. The proper term would be “meridian”. The meridian is an imaginary line that goes from the horizon directly north, to straight above, and then back down to the southern horizon. Noon is defined as when the Sun crosses the meridian, hence morning is ante-meridian (a.m.) and afternoon is post-meridian (p.m.). Personally, I’ve never heard the word apogee except in academic contexts. Frankly I’d be shocked to hear anyone who’s not an astronomer use it, let alone use it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/8 "2014-04-22T03:41:21Z")
Yeah, I’m going to end up changing it. Being wrong by mistake is one thing, but being knowingly wrong- then doing it over and over again- nah, I’m just going to change it. On some level, I knew that starting a “how wrong is this?” Thread just meant that I was fighting what I knew to be the proper course. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/9 "2014-04-22T04:44:05Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > . . . I can never remember apogee vs. perigee anyway. Are there many other people here likewise? I derive it from “peri” in other words with Greek roots, such as periapt, peristalsis, perimeter, and so on. By the way, Peter Schickele narrates PDQ Bach’s “Classical Rap” and throws out the following bit of charming modesty: “So, anyway, now hear the sound Of the very best rapper for miles around. Yes, I’m the fellow who’s where it’s at There’s absolutely no denying that Yes, I’m the apex, I’m the best I’m considerably better than all the rest The acme, the zenith, the tippest to the top The nec plus ultra, the hippest to the hop The summit, the pinnacle, the highest of the high The apogee of rappers, that’s I.” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/10 "2014-04-22T05:14:00Z")
m-w: **apo·gee** noun \ˈa-pə-(ˌ)jē : the highest point of something : the point in outer space where an object traveling around the Earth (such as a satellite or the moon) is farthest away from the Earth That doesn’t apply to the sun at midday? I can see it not applying to the sun at clock-midday because of timezones and so forth, but isn’t the “natural midday” by definition the moment when the sun is highest in the sky, the highest point of its daily trajectory? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/11 "2014-04-22T05:20:12Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > m-w: > > **apo·gee** noun \ˈa-pə-(ˌ)jē > : the highest point of something > > : the point in outer space where an object traveling around the Earth (such as a satellite or the moon) is farthest away from the Earth > That doesn’t apply to the sun at midday? I can see it not applying to the sun at clock-midday because of timezones and so forth, but isn’t the “natural midday” by definition the moment when the sun is highest in the sky, the highest point of its daily trajectory? It probably hasn’t applied since we gave up on geocentrism. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/12 "2014-04-22T05:21:23Z")
So? The sun still follows a trajectory. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/13 "2014-04-22T05:29:47Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > So? The sun still follows a trajectory. Seems a bit weird to apply it to a heavenly body that doesn’t circle the Earth, though. [The word literally means “distance from the Earth”](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apogee), and has a very specific astronomical meaning. I can see plenty of potential poetic or metaphorical uses for it, but I’d have to say that this ain’t one. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/14 "2014-04-22T05:39:26Z")
[h2g2 The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition](http://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A3239796) > [@](#): > > The explanation comes from the analemma. Recall that the analemma is the pattern by which the noon location of the sun varies. What it means is that the sun is not always directly at the meridian when clocks read noon. We measure an occurrence - \*\*noon, the daily apogee of the sun \*\*(which fluctuates subtly throughout the year) by dividing up its average period into 24 hours consisting of 60 minutes, which then in turn consist of 60 equal seconds. No wonder noon appears to wander. Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/15 "2014-04-22T07:00:33Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Seems a bit weird to apply it to a heavenly body that doesn’t circle the Earth, though. [The word literally means “distance from the Earth”](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apogee), and has a very specific astronomical meaning. I can see plenty of potential poetic or metaphorical uses for it, but I’d have to say that this ain’t one. No body circles the Earth. Not even the Moon and the artificial satellites. It’s all a matter of what is mathematically easier to describe. When the math is easier with the Sun in the center (or in a center) we put it there; when it’s the Earth, or Jupiter, or Io, that’s what we use. Then again, what my Physics teacher used to say is “we are engineers because we know how to change the frame of reference”; being able to change it back and forth so the total work is simpler may be an engineery thing. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/16 "2014-04-22T07:25:29Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Seems a bit weird to apply it to a heavenly body that doesn’t circle the Earth, though. [The word literally means “distance from the Earth”](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apogee), and has a very specific astronomical meaning. I can see plenty of potential poetic or metaphorical uses for it, but I’d have to say that this ain’t one. From [Vocabulary.com](http://Vocabulary.com): > [@](#): > > Because apogee denotes the highest point something reaches in an orbit before falling back, it can also figuratively refer to other highs. Most, if not all, of the online dictionaries found by [OneLook Dictionaries](http://www.onelook.com/?w=apogee&ls=b&sourceid=Mozilla-search) seem to give something like “highest point” as one of the meanings. The [Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/apogee) does not even mention the astronomical meaning (which is, of course, rarely used in practice, rarely even by real astronomers I should imagine). ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/17 "2014-04-22T08:17:59Z")
I just wrote up an essay describing the correct usage of apogee and perigee (as I understand it), but then before clicking on “Submit”, I considered it prudent to read up on it in Wikipedia to make sure I’m not missing any important details – and discovered I still had it largely wrong. Here, [see what the wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apsis) sez: > [@](#): > > An apsis (Greek ἁψίς, gen. ἁψίδος), plural apsides (/ˈæpsɨdiːz/; Greek: ἁψίδες), is a point of greatest or least distance of a body in an elliptic orbit about a larger body. For a body orbiting the Sun the greatest and least distance points are called respectively aphelion and perihelion (/æpˈhiːliən/, /ˌpɛrɨˈhiːliən/), whereas for any satellite of Earth including the Moon the corresponding points are apogee and perigee (/ˈpɛrɨdʒiː/). The generic suffix, independent of the particular central body, can be either apsis or centre, hence apoapsis, apocentre or apapsis (from ἀπ(ό) (ap(ó)), meaning “from”), and periapsis or pericentre (from περί (peri), meaning “around”). During the Apollo program, the terms pericynthion and apocynthion (referencing Cynthia, an alternative name for the Greek Moon goddess Artemis) were used when referring to the Moon. It turns out, the terminology differs depending on which astronomical body is orbiting which other astronomical body. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/18 "2014-04-22T12:38:57Z")
I think it’s incorrect to use apogee in reference to the sun. The earth has an aphelion and perihelion once each year. The moon has a perigee and apogee each month. From a given point on earth, the sun has a point where it is highest in the sky (or indeed at the zenith for a given latitude in the tropics for each day). ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/19 "2014-04-22T15:42:29Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > m-w: > > **apo·gee** noun \ˈa-pə-(ˌ)jē > : the highest point of something > > : the point in outer space where an object traveling around the Earth (such as a satellite or the moon) is farthest away from the Earth > That doesn’t apply to the sun at midday? I can see it not applying to the sun at clock-midday because of timezones and so forth, but isn’t the “natural midday” by definition the moment when the sun is highest in the sky, the highest point of its daily trajectory? No. Consider watching a fireworks display. A rocket, at it’s apogee, is not overhead at all, but just at the highest point of its arc. If you are far enough away, it is quite close to the horizon, but still at its apogee. There is an astronomical date on which the earth and the sun are at apogee, but it might occur in the middle of the night where you are, and the sun is invisible to you, but still at apogee. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648/20 "2014-04-22T16:07:47Z")
I may be at the perigee of understanding, or am I misusing the term? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-the-misuse-of-the-word-apogee-to-refer-to-the-midday-sun/686648.md?page=2)