how common were US war crimes in Vietnam

[BrainGlutton]

@LonesomePolecat

American atrocities in Viet Nam have been greatly exaggerated for political purposes . . .

:dubious: Are you calling the “Winter Soldier” witnesses liars?

http://www.johnreilly.info/soro.htm

[BrainGlutton]

Sorry, here’s the right link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation#Testimony_from_veterans

[Wesley_Clark]

@LonesomePolecat

But if you were sure of that already, * why did you even ask the damn question in the first place??!? *

Because I asked ‘how common were US war crimes in Vietnam’ not ‘did the viet cong commit more war crimes than the US in the vietnam war’.

[CBEscapee]

More American terror

History does have a way of repeating itself.

[LonesomePolecat]

@BrainGlutton

:dubious: Are you calling the “Winter Soldier” witnesses liars?

Yep, I sure am. And anybody who believes them is a chump.

[GIGObuster]

@LonesomePolecat

Yep, I sure am. And anybody who believes them is a chump.

I think it is you who likes to be misled:

From the link:

One of the stories told and retold was that of prisoners pushed out of helicopters in order to scare others into talking. It is, of course, possible that some American interrogators engaged in this criminal practice, though not a single instance has been confirmed.

Just in this thread 2 posters reported that relatives or teachers that were there said that it did happen, while there is evidence to dismiss some of the winter soldiers, the evidence IMHO points to dismiss reports like the one you linked, it seems that this one is coming from a book; it may be made by a historian, but by referring to a “Naval Criminal Investigative Service” research that was allegedly done and it says that it “demonstrated many winter soldiers were not telling the truth”. The problem is that those allegations are looking more like propaganda to me:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200409030004

Conservative historian Guenter Lewy claimed in his 1978 book, America in Vietnam, that a Naval Investigative Service report into the Winter Soldier allegations had discredited many of the witnesses and accounts, and in some cases impostors had assumed the identities of real veterans who were not present at the investigation. But no one can seem to locate a copy of it: “We have not been able to confirm the existence of this report, but it’s also possible that such records could have been destroyed or misplaced,” Naval Criminal Investigative Service public affairs specialist Paul O’Donnell told the Tribune. In a February 14 Baltimore Sun article, Lewy himself admitted that “he does not recall if he saw a copy of the naval investigative report or was briefed on its contents.” Apart from Lewy’s allegations, a Media Matters for America search turned up no other reports of evidence that any Winter Soldier witness was an impostor.

In any case, I have seen other reports from other guys that were not at the Winter Soldier hearings, their tales show also that there was more where that came from:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/phoenix/

Created by the CIA in Saigon in 1967, Phoenix was a program aimed at “neutralizing”—through assassination, kidnapping, and systematic torture—the civilian infrastructure that supported the Viet Cong insurgency in South Vietnam

http://www.thememoryhole.org/unacceptable-target.htm

So we went down and flew over real low and slow. There were children in the courtyard, smiling and waving at us. This village had obviously been there for years, and it had never been touched. I pulled back up; and I said, “Okay, what are your instructions?”

He said, “The wind is blowing off-shore; so put your napalm down on that first row of houses, and the wind will carry the fire across the entire village.”

So I said, "“Fine.”

I pulled around and told my wingman to come in from one side and I would attack from the other. We would start our attack from opposite corners. I was coming in toward the corner hut. I looked up at the other end, and he had moved over the road and dropped his napalm on the road. As I approached my release point, a woman with a tiny baby strapped on her back, holding the hand of a small child three or four years old, came running from the hut. I pulled my aircraft over and dropped the napalm in a ditch beside the highway.

The FAC screamed and raised holy hell because he had this governor in the aircraft with him. He said, “You know I’m going to report you for this!”

I said, “You don’t have to. I’ll be on the ground before you are, and I’ll report myself.”

When we landed, my wingman walked over to my aircraft and said, “Sir, I have three small grandchildren, and I could never have faced them again if I had followed those orders.” He said he didn’t want to fly any more combat missions. Later, I had him transferred to a unit with an airborne command and control mission.

I went into Squadron Operations and called the Command Center at Seventh air Force and talked to the director, a brigadier general I had served with several years before. I told him what happened.

He said, “Damn, Cotton, don’t you know what’s going on? That village didn’t pay their taxes. That lieutenant colonel, a provincial commander, is teaching them a lesson.”

On returning from an interdiction mission several days later, we flew over the target area. The village had been totally destroyed. Nothing but a large, black, burned area remained. I’m sure when the FAC got a fast-mover (high-performance jet) on the target and destroyed the village the report read: Target 100 percent destroyed, body-count 1200 KBA (killed by air) confirmed.

I’m a grandfather now, and I can’t watch my grandchildren at play or carry them in my arms without thinking of that village in Vietnam.

[BrainGlutton]

Based just on what I’ve read in this threads, Polecat, it appears American atrocities in Vietnam have been grossly understated for political purposes, systematically, for decades now. And conversations with a few chance-met Vietnam vets only reinforces that impression.

[tomndebb]

@LonesomePolecat

Yep, I sure am. And anybody who believes them is a chump.

Following the logic used in that site, one would have to agree that stories of returning veterans being spit upon or otherwise harrassed are simply inventions. After all, a couple of guys did a study that reportedly showed that it was unlikely.

Without actual data (preferably recorded by objective sources at the time, not relying on emotional memories or manipulated by persons with their own agendas to push), I am not sure that we will discover the truth–even if we ever agree on how to recognize the “truth.”

On the other hand, there is no point in making this discussion personal. You have repeatedly posted nasty comments about other posters in this thread that were just barely inside the border of the rules. Cumulatively, however, you have contributed a lot more hostility than information and you are hurting your own cause.

Cool off.

[Cartooniverse]

@xtisme

@Wesley Clark

What does our machine gunning of civilians (some children under 5) who are unarmed have to do with how evil the other side is

Because both sides were doing essentially the same thing? -XT

Oh, really now. I will be ever so grateful to see the cites you are doubtless able to provide that recound in undeniable detail just how many 5 year old American children were blown to bits by the VC, or how many fine American wives living in Ohio were raped and then had their brains blown out. The countless atrocities committed against unarmed non-military civillian type of folk living in their own country by the V.C. You know, the Eagle Scout in Norfolk or the waitress in Duluth. Those poor victims, whose senseless deaths justify My Lai and balance the books.

Straw men burn fast in Great Debates…

Cartooniverse

[SandyHook]

I spent a year in Vietnam as a Marine, February 1969-February 1970, getting two Purple Hearts. I was with Golf company of the 7th Marines. Virtually the entire tour was in the field. During one 6 month period we were in the bush all but a handful of days.

I don’t remember anything that could be called an atrocity except through the most extreme intertpration of the word. We were, it seems in retrospect, assholes a lot of the time. There was a lot of big talking, threats, and boasting; and a whole pile of stories about what some guy said had happened somewhere else.

The prisoners we took were more ignored than mistreated. The wounded were tended to as best the Corpsmen could. Our Kit Carson’s (NVA/VC that had switched sides and acted as scouts for us) were far more likely to beat on them then I ever saw any of us do. I think they (the KC’s) were amazed when they were stopped.

Since returning home I’ve listened to numerous vets (or so they claim) over the years talk about atrocities. I really believe that the bulk of them are just liars who are, in one way or another, trying to make themselves important, worldweary, tragic, put upon, or whatever.

Non of the above (nor what the communists did) does anything to minimize the evil things that did happen. Those that murder and rape should be punished. As mentioned before, the fact that the communists were probably much worse is neither here nor there.

I do believe that American atrocities were over reported for a variety of reasons. The correspondents sought out such stories because they sold. The communists because they served their purposes. The anti-war movement because it made them seem morally superior. The returning vets who opposed the war found that it gave them. . . . . . something.

As to how common they really were is very hard to answer. In my experience, not very.

[ambushed]

@LonesomePolecat

The hell it doesn’t. You want to condemn My Lai? Then you need to know why My Lai happened. And you can’t understand that unless you understand that American troops in Viet Nam were in large part responding to the mind-boggling brutality of the enemy they were fighting.

If you want the truth, you have to look at the whole picture. You simpy can’t understand what happened there unless you’re going to take into account what the enemy was doing.

Actually, I think it’s the lefties who are the self-righteous hypocrites here. Any one who gets his panties in a wad over My Lai but doesn’t care about the massacre at Hue during the Tet offensive, is not someone whose views need to be take seriously.

@LonesomePolecat

Your moral algebra is warped. You can’t judge the actions of our troops in isolation from the rest of the war. You can’t judge the moral character of any action divorced from context.

You present an inadequate understanding of morality and legality. I would argue that it is your moral alegbra that is warped here.

The higher the standards (announced or implied), the greater is the immorality or crime when they are violated, even if they are not violated to the same extent that others with lower standards have done. Furthermore, there is no way, shape, or form in which context or justification can change an immoral or illegal act into a moral or legal one. Context can only justify mitigation of the punishment for the violation, it cannot mitigate the violation itself.

I agree that one must not ignore or downplay the crimes and atrocities of the enemy, yet the seriousness of the atrocities and near-atrocities of those proclaiming higher standards are more worthy of our scorn and approbation.

[Monty]

Nobody needs to “understand why My Lai occurred” to condemn it. It was murder, and murder is contemptible.