# How could anyone think Bush won the second debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471 "2004-10-10T15:09:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/1 "2004-10-10T15:09:53Z")
How could anyone think Bush won the second debate? It seems so blazingly clear to me that the best way to characterize his performance was “immature,” maybe even “childish.” Yet they tied, apparently, in the polls about the debate. I can’t imagine anyone watching Bush jumping in and cutting off the moderator, and yelling at the audience, and so on, thinking, “now that’s the man _I_ want handling sensitive diplomatic issues and thinking through complex political problems as _my_ president!” Please explain. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/2 "2004-10-10T15:31:16Z")
I agree with you. But, why is this in Cafe Society? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/3 "2004-10-10T15:41:35Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > I agree with you. But, why is this in Cafe Society? Damn good question. I think I’ll move this to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/4 "2004-10-10T15:43:10Z")
Whazza’ matter? GD and The Pit overflowing with Bush bashing threads so you needed to put one here? ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/5 "2004-10-10T15:44:22Z")
Just can’t win, can he? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/6 "2004-10-10T15:46:09Z")
Answer: There are roughly equal numbers of Bush supporters and Kerry supporters. Everybody thinks his favorite candidate won. Therefore, roughly equal numbers think each won the debate. But that’s just what I read on the internets. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/7 "2004-10-10T15:46:23Z")
In Bush’s latest campaign speech, he’s basically calling Kerry a liar. > [@](#): > > “With a straight face, he said, ‘I had only one position on Iraq.’ I could barely contain myself. He must think we’ve been on another planet,” Bush said, and contended his opponent “doesn’t pass the credibility test.” What planet would that be, Georgie? _MARS?_ Kerry explained his position quite clearly. There is a quote from a speech Kerry made when the issue of giving the President authority to invade Iraw _as a last resort_ that is posted in another thread. Either Bush is lying about Kerry’s position, or he does not possess the capacity to understand (repeated) clear statements of positions. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/8 "2004-10-10T16:11:53Z")
Likely these viewers focused on the party talking points rather than the dynamics of the debate. I made the same error back in 80, when I thought Jimmy Carter trounced Ronald Reagan. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/9 "2004-10-10T16:19:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > How could anyone think Bush won the second debate? Because he did and they have a firmer grasp of reality than you. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/10 "2004-10-10T16:33:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Answer: There are roughly equal numbers of Bush supporters and Kerry supporters. Everybody thinks his favorite candidate won. Therefore, roughly equal numbers think each won the debate. But that’s just what I read on the internets. Yes, as far as it goes. It wouldn’t surprise me, for example, that a fundamentalist Christian with a neo-con foriegn policy perspective would feel that Bush won the debate. There are clearly three groups - Bush supporters, Kerry supporters, and undecideds. So what is most interesting is to look at the polling results of only the undecideds, which clearly fall to Kerry’s favor. Anyone want to take a guess at which group **RikWriter** falls into? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/11 "2004-10-10T16:46:43Z")
The score was 83 - 81. There were sixteen fouls on Kerry, and twenty-two fouls on Bush. Towards the end of the first quarter, Bush threw a long drive towards Kerry, who successfully dodged and it only grazed his shoulder. Then Kerry shot back at Bush, catching him in the solar plexus and winding him momentarily. The ref called a foul on Cheney for a sneak attack on Edwards from the second row, and then… Oh, wait, so it’s not a sporting event? … thanks for moving it away from Cafe Society, then, **Czarcasm.** ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/12 "2004-10-10T16:47:07Z")
I put it in cafe society because politics is a societal issue and becasue there was a thread about the debate in cafe society already. I haven’t even looked in GD or the Pit since signing on to Straightdope, so I didn’t know there were discussions about this topic over in those boards. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/13 "2004-10-10T16:57:36Z")
AZCowboy, I have only been able to find summaries of the debate poll results which state that they are tied. I haven’t been able to find anything separating out just the results among undecided voters. Could you point me to a site or give me some better google search words than I have been using? (I used various combinations of “Bush”, “Kerry”, “Second”, “Townhall”, “Town,” “Hall”, “Debate”, “Won”, and “Undecided.”) -FrL- > [@AZCowboy](#): > > Yes, as far as it goes. It wouldn’t surprise me, for example, that a fundamentalist Christian with a neo-con foriegn policy perspective would feel that Bush won the debate. > > There are clearly three groups - Bush supporters, Kerry supporters, and undecideds. So what is most interesting is to look at the polling results of only the undecideds, which clearly fall to Kerry’s favor. > > Anyone want to take a guess at which group **RikWriter** falls into? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/14 "2004-10-10T17:11:21Z")
i would suggest any of the news sites. i read the transcripts on cnn. when bush interrupted mr gibson (my fav. news guy) i wondered if he spoke to leaders of other countries like that. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/15 "2004-10-10T17:23:43Z")
I first heard the statistic on TV (ABC News, I think). But I also am not having an easy time finding an online cite. I may have heard this bit: > [@](#): > > Independents divided by 44 percent to 34 percent between Kerry and Bush; however, that is within the margin of sampling error for the number of independents surveyed. > [Cite](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2004/story?id=150617&page=1) but not caught the importance of the final phrase. Here is a small [anecdote](http://pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.ssf?/base/politics-0/1097420344320780.xml&storylist=penn) that supports the point. But, there doesn’t appear to be any significant poll results among undecideds yet available regarding the second debate, so I reserve my “clearly favors Kerry” comment until more support is available. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/16 "2004-10-10T17:52:17Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > In Bush’s latest campaign speech, he’s basically calling Kerry a liar. > > What planet would that be, Georgie? _MARS?_ > > Kerry explained his position quite clearly. Yes, I agree. He clearly explained his position on Iraq during his presidential campaign: SEN. JOHN KERRY: “Iraq may not be the war on terror itself, but it is critical to the outcome of the war on terror. And therefore any advance in Iraq is an advance forward in that. And I disagree with the Governor [Howard Dean].” (Fox News’ “Special Report,” 12/15/03) And Senator Edwards clearly explained his position on Iraq since 9/11: SEN. JOHN EDWARDS: “I think Iraq is the most serious and imminent threat to our country. And I think they - as a result, we have to, as we go forward and as we develop policies about how we’re going to deal with each of these countries and what action, if any, we’re going to take with respect to them, I think each of them have to be dealt with on their own merits. And they do, in my judgment, present different threats. And I think Iraq and Saddam Hussein present the most serious and most imminent threat.” (CNN’s Late Edition, 2/24/02) Nothing ambiquous about either statements. [http://rawpolitix.blogspot.com/2004\_10\_01\_rawpolitix\_archive.html](http://rawpolitix.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_rawpolitix_archive.html) ---
**Author:** ![cj\_finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@cj\_finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cj_finn)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/17 "2004-10-10T18:04:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > SEN. JOHN KERRY: “Iraq may not be the war on terror itself, but it is critical to the outcome of the war on terror. And therefore any advance in Iraq is an advance forward in that. And I disagree with the Governor [Howard Dean].” (Fox News’ “Special Report,” 12/15/03) I’ll grant you that Edwards statement is hash. Even the most cogent argument will succumb to that many comma splices. Good thing its not the only time he’s addressed the issue though, isn’t it? Kerry’s statement is pretty clear though. Iraq is not the war on terror. Or to be more precise, it wasn’t the war on terror. Invading it has made it ground zero, hasn’t it? My six year old thinks I need to use a smiley here so here goes (these have nothing to do with any posts): 🙂 :rolleyes: 🆒 :smack: cj ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/18 "2004-10-10T18:14:12Z")
Because he didn’t look and act (as much) like an angry wet monkey the same way he did in the first debate. For him, that is the same as a slam dunk win. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/19 "2004-10-10T18:46:06Z")
**Magiver** : You forgot the smiley. Kerry _has_ been consistent on his position on the war in Iraq. [From this post by **Equipoise**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5350978&postcount=8) (bolding is mine): > [@](#): > > [John Kerry’s Statement on Iraq Before the War](http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html) > > … > In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days–to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side **if** we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out. > … > > In voting to grant the President the authority, **I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod** over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. **The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet.** I emphasize “yet.” Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein’s arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But **it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent.** None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack. > … > Congressional action on this resolution is not the end of our national debate on how best to disarm Iraq. Nor does it mean we have exhausted all of our peaceful options to achieve this goal. There is much more to be done. The administration must continue its efforts to build support at the United Nations for a new, unfettered, unconditional weapons inspection regime. **If we can eliminate the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction through inspections** , whenever, wherever, and however we want them, including in palaces–and I am highly skeptical, given the full record, given their past practices, that we can necessarily achieve that–then **we have an obligation to try that as the first course of action before we expend American lives in any further effort** > … \*TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR, October 9, 2002 \* Kerry said two years ago, six months before the war started, that Iraq was not in imminent threat. He said that he was voting to give the President the authority to attach Iraq _if diplomatic efforts failed_. He has been saying that the President did not persue diplomatic efforts to exhaustion, but declared that the time for diplomacy was over. His position has _not_ changed. Bush & Co. are deliberately and knowingly claiming that he has. As can be seen my Kerry’s speech, he hasn’t. Ergo, BushCo is lying and a lot of the public are buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471/20 "2004-10-10T18:56:11Z")
> [@cj finn](#): > > I’ll grant you that Edwards statement is hash. Even the most cogent argument will succumb to that many comma splices. Good thing its not the only time he’s addressed the issue though, isn’t it? > > Kerry’s statement is pretty clear though. Iraq is not the war on terror. Or to be more precise, it wasn’t the war on terror. Invading it has made it ground zero, hasn’t it? > > My six year old thinks I need to use a smiley here so here goes (these have nothing to do with any posts): 🙂 :rolleyes: 🆒 :smack: > > cj I’ve heard Kerry make almost identical statements to Edward’s but I haven’t found them in print yet. Dial-up makes it tough to sift through all the sites. I also didn’t want to turn it into a flip-flop post because it would get too lengthy. Kerry has definitely shifted his Iraqi position since the Democratic Primaries and that is his prerogative. However, He can’t claim his position on the subject is unchanged. The sun is shining so I’m off to absorb some of it. Tell your 6 year old the smileys look nice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-anyone-think-bush-won-the-second-debate/268471.md?page=2)