# How could gerrymandered districts be un-gerrymandered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391 "2012-11-08T19:08:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/201 "2013-12-30T20:19:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You haven’t presented a rational basis that the chances are zero, as opposed to minuscule. The chances of winning the lottery are fantastically bad, but that doesn’t mean that they are zero. That’s correct. Is buying a lottery ticket a rational decision? Or do people buy the tickets because of the warm fuzzies? And that’s taking into account that there are lottery winners every week. Last time a federal election was decided by one vote was 1910. And never before that that I could find. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/202 "2013-12-30T20:20:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is a very small but not zero chance of winning a lottery. Buying a lottery ticket is still not a rational decision. Sure it is, since the cost is so low. You pretty much lose nothing. Buying $1,000 in lottery tickets might be a bad idea, but one or two? A million to one odds are still better than zero chances. And you still get the intangible warm and fuzzy feeling of dreaming about what you’d do if you won. Kind of like how voting costs very little. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/203 "2013-12-30T20:22:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s correct. Is buying a lottery ticket a rational decision? The question is whether or not you are accurate in your claim that there is “zero” as opposed to a small chance of a single vote deciding an election. You are obviously wrong. Whatever you or I think about paying money to play the lottery is a different issue, and a sidetrack to a claim you made that is just false. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/204 "2013-12-30T20:22:55Z")
BTW, back on topic - Terr’s logic and attitude, regardless of whether we judge them rational or not, are a product of the geography-based winner-take-all system that proportional representation would fix. Under a PR system, his vote would always count. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/205 "2013-12-30T20:25:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Ah. > > Since I offered more than one word in the first place, perhaps you could offer more than a reply to one word. Snark deserves snark. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/206 "2013-12-30T20:26:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The question is whether or not you are accurate in your claim that there is “zero” as opposed to a small chance of a single vote deciding an election. You are obviously wrong. Whatever you or I think about paying money to play the lottery is a different issue, and a sidetrack to a claim you made that is just false. I am not “obviously” wrong. It is a very good supposition that no modern federal election will be allowed to be decided by one vote. Not by the legal system and not by the political system. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/207 "2013-12-30T20:28:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Snark deserves snark. I was responding to a post in which you basically said that lots of little donations of money don’t add up to alot of money, which is demonstrably absurd. Perhaps I should have been the first one to say “fail.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/208 "2013-12-30T20:29:49Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Under a PR system, his vote would always count. I don’t think that would fix his specific complaint. As he laid it out, “[P]eople who go to vote in federal elections because they think their individual vote may affect the outcome are deluding themselves.” As I read it, unless an individual vote sways the outcome for candidate A, B or C (and the implied defeat of all other candidates), I believe he’s saying that an individual’s vote would continue not to count under virtually all electoral systems. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/209 "2013-12-30T20:31:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am not “obviously” wrong. It is a very good supposition that no modern federal election will be allowed to be decided by one vote. Not by the legal system and not by the political system. What the hell are you talking about, “allowed to be decided” by one vote? Is the election fairy going to come down and nullify federal elections because one candidate won by the barest of pluralities? Get a grip. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/210 "2013-12-30T20:32:20Z")
Terr, if your vote is worthless, along with any small contribution you make to charity, why do you expend so much time on these comments? Wouldn’t comments on a board like this be that much more pointless? What makes you take the effort to post? Why even lift a finger? This is not a rhetorical or snarky question - I’d really like to know. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/211 "2013-12-30T20:33:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I was responding to a post in which you basically said that lots of little donations of money don’t add up to alot of money, which is demonstrably absurd. I didn’t say that. I said YOUR little donation doesn’t add up to a lot of money. Which is obviously correct. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/212 "2013-12-30T20:35:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t think that would fix his specific complaint. As he laid it out, “[P]eople who go to vote in federal elections because they think their individual vote may affect the outcome are deluding themselves.” > > As I read it, unless an individual vote sways the outcome for candidate A, B or C (and the implied defeat of all other candidates), I believe he’s saying that an individual’s vote would continue not to count under virtually all electoral systems. But all votes sway the outcome in a PR system. All votes are counted and all result in representation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/213 "2013-12-30T20:36:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What the hell are you talking about, “allowed to be decided” by one vote? Exactly what I said. No court or political system will decide that a Senator is seated when the difference in the count is one vote. There will be another recount and more votes will be “found”. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/214 "2013-12-30T20:36:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I didn’t say that. I said YOUR little donation doesn’t add up to a lot of money. Which is obviously correct. You misinterpreted my comment then. My donation, when combined with others, adds up to alot. I thought that was obviously what I was saying. Nevertheless, there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/215 "2013-12-30T20:38:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Terr, if your vote is worthless, along with any small contribution you make to charity, why do you expend so much time on these comments? Wouldn’t comments on a board like this be that much more pointless? What makes you take the effort to post? Why even lift a finger? Cuz I like to argue? You missed my point, didn’t you. If you get some kind of pleasure/satisfaction/warm fuzzies from an irrational act - all power to you, go ahead and do it. But if it is a chore, a hassle and irrational, then people don’t (and really shouldn’t) do it. Human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/216 "2013-12-30T20:39:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You misinterpreted my comment then. > > My donation, when combined with others, adds up to alot. And all the other donations, when combined, without yours, add up to “alot”. So? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/217 "2013-12-30T20:43:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Exactly what I said. No court or political system will decide that a Senator is seated when the difference in the count is one vote. There will be another recount and more votes will be “found”. I think the people who think that the moon landing was faked have more evidence for their theory than you do for yours. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/218 "2013-12-30T20:45:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I think the people who think that the moon landing was faked have more evidence for their theory than you do for yours. As much as you have for your theory that a modern federal election can possibly be decided by one vote. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/219 "2013-12-30T20:49:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But all votes sway the outcome in a PR system. All votes are counted and all result in representation. I get what you’re saying, but that’s not strictly true. Let’s say 1,000 people are represented by multiple seats. Whether the top vote-getting candidate gets 501 or 502 votes is irrelevant: that 502nd vote **counted** , but “did not affect [sic] the outcome” as **Terr** stated. (I acknowledge that I said that an individual’s vote would not “count” in the post you responded to; I used that word inaccurately. I should have said that an individual’s vote would not be “decisive,” which I believe is **Terr** ’s underlying point.) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391/220 "2013-12-30T20:50:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As much as you have for your theory that a modern federal election can possibly be decided by one vote. You’re the one claiming that mysterious powers would intervene. I know of no rational or legal basis for what you’re claiming. By the way, you seem to be insinuating that pre-modern federal elections were more honest. You can’t seriously believe that, can you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-gerrymandered-districts-be-un-gerrymandered/640391.md?page=12)