# How could Harry Potter have a "godfather"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820 "2004-06-05T16:32:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/41 "2004-06-06T18:59:29Z")
> [@Shoshana](#): > > For that matter, I live in the United States and throughout my life have been the first Jew many people have met. When I lived in a more southerly state, I often (yes, _often)_ met people who believed that Jews had horns. How many non-Jewish people know how to wrap tfillin, even in cities with huge Jewish populations? So the insularity of the wizard world does not surprise me. They obviously missed the point of that Little House on the Prarie episode. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/42 "2004-06-06T19:04:44Z")
**Lamia** , I believe that what **Wendell Wagner** is saying is that there are enough quirks and bumps rough spots in the Harry Potter books to make it sem self-evident that forming a perfectly internally consistient narative setting was not a priority for her and, therefore, questions about the internal narrative consistiency of the novels are fundamentally unanswerable. It’s as if I wrote a cook book and in the cookbook I never got more specfic in my measurements than 1/4 cup. There’s no point in comming in behind me and asking if I really meant 3/8 of a cup or 5/8, or getting into long discussions about what I might have meant or what I might have been thinking. As the author, all I ever measured out was a rough 1/4 of a cup and I, myself, never gave any thought to whether I was really measuring more 3/8 of a cup of more 5/8 of a cup because im my judgement, for the kind of recipes I was writing it really didn’t matter or add anything of value to be that specific. In the same way, in the narrative that Rowling has written, she doesn’t seem to value rigid internal consistency that much–that’s neither good nor bad, it’s just a stylistic choice. But, as such, it seems somewhat futile and groundless to endlessly try to impose rigid, infallible logical coherence on a text that simply doesn’t value it. It’s spending hours looking for a needle in a haystack, only there’s no needle and there’s nothing wrong with having no needle. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/43 "2004-06-06T19:46:53Z")
Excellent post **Manda JO** , and I am largely in agreement. However: > [@Manda JO](#): > > **Lamia** , I believe that what **Wendell Wagner** is saying is that there are enough quirks and bumps rough spots in the Harry Potter books to make it sem self-evident that forming a perfectly internally consistient narative setting was not a priority for her and, therefore, questions about the internal narrative consistiency of the novels are fundamentally unanswerable. Many such questions, yes. But the particular one posed by the OP doesn’t seem to fall into this category to me, because whether or not Harry was baptized (and I see no reason why he couldn’t have been), one may have a godfather without being baptized. Harry has a godfather because his parents offered their friend the honor and he accepted. This is perfectly consistent with what we know of the close friendship between James Potter and the godfather elect. What specific religious practices wizards and witches follow, a question Rowling has largely avoided and which I would consider “fundamentally unanswerable” given what little information we have, doesn’t need to enter into it at all because it wouldn’t make any difference in this situation anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/44 "2004-06-06T20:20:46Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Isn’t this a pretty big spoiler? I don’t consider any plot point a “spoiler” if it was revealed in the first third of the movie. Anyone care to argue this point? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/45 "2004-06-06T20:25:28Z")
> [@](#): > > But since we’re on the subject – something that’s always bugged me is Hermione’s terribly emotional reaction to being called a “mudblood.” It’s been a while since I read it, but I think that in the book Hermione doesn’t have a particularly emotional reaction. Sure, she knows she’s being insulted, but it’s Ron who blows his top. And by the way, **Shoshana** , what’s tfillin? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/46 "2004-06-06T20:42:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s been a while since I read it, but I think that in the book Hermione doesn’t have a particularly emotional reaction. Sure, she knows she’s being insulted, but it’s Ron who blows his top. > > And by the way, **Shoshana** , what’s tfillin? [http://www.jewisheart.com/index.asp?mode=ItemDetail&id=57](http://www.jewisheart.com/index.asp?mode=ItemDetail&id=57) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/47 "2004-06-06T21:08:42Z")
Lamia writes: \> Where did I say anything about literary quality? Well, you wrote: \> Perhaps it’s still not up to your exacting standards of literary realism, but if \> that’s the case I don’t know why you’re bothering with fantasy novels at all. You make it sound like I must not really like fantasy at all, since at least sometimes I’m willing to quibble about the consistency of the background of the story. I love fantasy, and sometimes I’m willing to accept a background with no real consistency in it. There’s lots of fantasy that has reasonably consistent backgrounds in it though. I objected to your riding me out of fantasy town on a rail because I have problems with an inconsistent background in what I think is a fairly minor fantasy series. (There was lots of fantasy before Harry Potter and there’ll be lots of fantasy after it’s gone.) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/48 "2004-06-06T21:20:39Z")
Lamia writes: \> Again, I don’t recall anything in the books to support your assertation \> that “wizards claim no knowledge of recent muggle culture”. Not quite what I wrote. I said: \> . . . in other ways the wizards claim no knowledge of recent muggle culture? I was not saying that wizards don’t claim to have any knowledge of recent muggle culture. I was saying that at times and about certain subjects they claim to have no such knowledge. What I’m complaining about is inconsistency. At times they seem to know little about muggle culture and at times they seem to know it very well. And it doesn’t seem to be the difference between different wizards, but an inconsistency for wizard culture as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/49 "2004-06-07T00:05:45Z")
what i haven’t seen addressed is, what if there is a baby ceremony in the wizard world? a naming ceremony, an x (number that has magical conns.) ceremony, a yearling celebration, etc where “god parents” would be named, and involved in the event. harry has a godfather who has been named, who is his godmother? and what happened to her? or where is she? is what i’m wondering… ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/50 "2004-06-07T02:06:53Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > But since we’re on the subject – something that’s always bugged me is Hermione’s terribly emotional reaction to being called a “mudblood.” I mean, sure, she could have been told it was an insult, but having grown up in the muggle world where the word isn’t commonly known it certainly wouldn’t have the same visceral punch. After all, a tribesman from central Africa would certainly have a very different reaction to the “n-word” than would an African-American, right? Centuries of cultural baggage make the word a much graver insult to the latter than to the former. Without that baggage, why meet the insult with anything more than irritation? As **Chronos** has already said, Hermione doesn’t know the meaning of the word “Mudblood” in the book, and doesn’t react badly to it. However, it shortens the scene considerably in the movie to give her those lines, rather than making Ron try to explain it while heaving up slugs, so that was how they handled it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/51 "2004-06-07T03:00:00Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > You make it sound like I must not really like fantasy at all, since at least sometimes I’m willing to quibble about the consistency of the background of the story. I love fantasy, and sometimes I’m willing to accept a background with no real consistency in it. There’s lots of fantasy that has reasonably consistent backgrounds in it though. I objected to your riding me out of fantasy town on a rail because I have problems with an inconsistent background in what I think is a fairly minor fantasy series. (There was lots of fantasy before Harry Potter and there’ll be lots of fantasy after it’s gone.) I don’t have the power, or the desire, to “ride you out of fantasy town on a rail”. Read whatever you like! I just don’t understand why you trouble yourself with books that apparently irritate you. Seems like a waste of time to me. > [@](#): > > - > > I was not saying that wizards don’t claim to have any knowledge of recent muggle culture. I was saying that at times and about certain subjects they claim to have no such knowledge. What I’m complaining about is inconsistency. At times they seem to know little about muggle culture and at times they seem to know it very well. And it doesn’t seem to be the difference between different wizards, but an inconsistency for wizard culture as a whole. \*I mentioned Japan during the Edo period before, but taking even modern, non-isolationist Japan as an example you might be surprised by the way people sometime seem to know little about Western culture and other times seem to know it very well. An informal poll of my 25-30 year old office mates revealed that none had ever heard of Nirvana, nor did they recognize Kurt Cobain’s photo, but all are capable of singing Carpenters songs when we go out for karaoke. Several wear crosses around their necks on a daily basis, but none are Christian and most neither know nor care much about Christianity. I’ve also met many Americans who have outdated, mistaken, or downright bizarre ideas about Japanese culture. As **Shoshana** has pointed out, many Americans are largely ignorant of the cultural practices of non-WASPs who may be living next door. Even a shiksa like me has had occasion to explain to other gentiles what a Passover _seder_ is, and that it has nothing to do with the mythical _satyr_. I would hardly expect wizard knowledge of Muggle culture to be more “consistent” than real-world human knowledge of other modern cultures. Rowling’s treatment of the subject may seem “inconsistent” to you, but it strikes me as more _plausible_ than a well-balanced understanding of Muggle culture would be. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/52 "2004-06-07T04:23:23Z")
My take on the subject is that the minority culture always has a **hugely** greater understanding of the majority culture than the other way around. Jews in the U.S. are completed surrounded by Christian culture every minute of every day in the public world. They would be expected to have near complete familiarity with everything other than the subtleties of individual denominational details. But as said, many Christians are unfamiliar with Jewish culture. If the wizards have to live in a Muggle world, then they have - **have** - to be totally knowledgeable about that world. Any other route would be disastrous. The obvious reason why Rowling would make her wizards so unaware is that she takes every opportunity to have fun by playing wizard-world off of muggle-world. This is to be expected. Every author who comes to f&sf from outside the genre does this, and many on the inside do it as well. Think of the Thursday Next novels of Jasper Fforde or Jennifer Government by Max Barry or This Other Eden by Ben Elton or all of Discworld by Terry Pratchett, just to name authors from the Commonwealth, all of whom score satiric points in exactly this fashion. Even so, I think that Rowling handles her wizarding world extremely poorly whenever she gets didactic about it, but that’s a general failing in her work. She’s much better sliding things into the background and letting the reader notice them. But only a Christian could possibly think that the culture in Rowling is somehow not Christian. Her world is England, and the general omnipresence of but non-attendance at the Church of England is just as true in the books as it appears to be in the real world. If her wizards were equivalent to Jews in the real U.K. or U.S., then everything about the books would be different. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/53 "2004-06-07T04:41:10Z")
> [@](#): > > My take on the subject is that the minority culture always has a hugely greater understanding of the majority culture than the other way around. And this is indeed the case in Rowling’s world. While Wizard understanding of Muggle culture is rather spotty, Muggle understanding of Wizard culture is essentially nonexistant. And there’s also a question of which majority and minority you’re comparing: One gets the impression that the typical British wizard would have more contact with Arabic or American wizards than he would with British muggles. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/54 "2004-06-07T04:48:14Z")
For that matter, though I know of the notion of the trinity, and could describe it to you, as a Jew I find both the idea and its mechanics perhaps as confusing as Mr Weasley finds the telephone. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/55 "2004-06-07T05:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > For that matter, though I know of the notion of the trinity, and could describe it to you, as a Jew I find both the idea and its mechanics perhaps as confusing as Mr Weasley finds the telephone. But then, that’s true for Christians, too. The priest at mass this morning (today happens to be Holy Trinity Sunday) said that a Jesuit friend of his once said that there were three great mysteries of the Catholic Church: 1: The Trinity 2: How many Third Order Franciscans there are 3: Whether the Jesuits are Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/56 "2004-06-07T05:55:35Z")
Chronos: [Wrapping Tefillin explained](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/tefillin.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/57 "2004-06-07T12:43:16Z")
I always assumed Harry had a godfather because of his mom, Lily, being born into a Muggle Family. She, more than likely, grew up Christian and would have, more than likely, baptized her son in this tradition. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/58 "2004-06-07T13:14:37Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > even if Quidditch is a fundamentally idiotic concept for a game, Forgive me… [http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=020915](http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=020915) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/59 "2004-06-07T13:34:38Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Chronos: > > [Wrapping Tefillin explained](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/tefillin.html) Aah…phylacteries…that’s what you were talking about! I only know them from D’nD, all the Jews I know are Reformist ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820/60 "2004-06-07T15:08:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Forgive me… > > [http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=020915](http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=020915) Ha. Thanks. Made my point exactly – “Let’s play for a couple of hours, knowing that all the scoring will be mooted when someone catches the snitch whose points will trump everything else.” Again, I suspect JKR may not be much of a sport fan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-harry-potter-have-a-godfather/248820.md?page=4)