# How could Neil Patrick Harris marry David Burtka in Italy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 15, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588 "2014-09-15T20:07:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/21 "2014-09-16T15:17:26Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Presumably, Harris and Burtka were married in a low key civil ceremony in New York before going to Italy to celebrate the ceremony with their friends and families. Or, possibly, they did the civil ceremony on their return from Italy. Or they just had the ceremony in Italy. It’s not a requirement that the solemnization take place in New York. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/22 "2014-09-16T15:33:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Or they just had the ceremony in Italy. It’s not a requirement that the solemnization take place in New York. The general rule for recognition of foreign marriages is that, if a marriage is not valid in the place where it is celebrated, then it is not recognised as valid anywhere. But, if it is valid in the place of celebration, then it is recognised as valid everywhere. There can be statutory exceptions both ways, but that is the default position. So, if a marriage celebrated in Italy complies with the essential requirements of Italian law for a valid marriage, New York state will recognise the couple concerned as married (even if the marriage wouldn’t have been valid if celebrated that way in New York - e.g. if New York law would have required the issue of a marriage licence, but Italian law did not). If it doesn’t, they won’t (even if the marriage would have been valid if celebrated that way in New York). And of course the Harris-Burtka marriage didn’t comply with the essential requirements of Italian law, on account of the fact that the spouses were not of different sexes. Hence, not valid in Italy. Hence, not recognised as valid by New York State. If Harris and Burtka are recognised as legally married in New York state, then they contracted a valid marriage either in New York State or in some third jurisdiction which recognises same-sex marriages ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/23 "2014-09-16T15:45:25Z")
That rule is for marriages conducted _entirely_ in another jurisdiction. In Harris’ case, the license was issued in New York. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/24 "2014-09-16T15:57:21Z")
But the issuing of a licence is not the conducting of a marriage, and it’s not part of the conducting of a marriage. Whether recognised in New York or not, the Harris/Burtka marriage was solemnised entirely in Italy, and accordingly its recognition as valid in NY will depend on its validity under Italian law. You can’t get around the application of Italian law to an Italian wedding by getting a New York licence. New York in fact only issues licences to people intending to be married _in New York State_; people intending to marry outside NY, even if they are residents of NY, do not require an NY marriage licence. And there would be an obvious jurisdictional issue with New York purporting to licence something being done in another jurisdiction. New York can no more licence a couple to marry in Italy than it can, say, licence a bank to accept deposits from the public in Italy. If you want to do these things it Italy, you need to comply with the requirements of Italian law, not New York law. Plus, there’s a practical issue; NY could not enforce its law making it an offence to celebrate a marriage without a licence having been obtained, and it would have no way to compel celebrants or others to comply with NY requirements regarding signing and filing of the licence after the wedding had been solemnised. So the application of New York licencing procedures to marriage not celebrated in New York would be pretty pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/25 "2014-09-16T16:43:16Z")
They are NY residents. A state can certainly exercise jurisdiction over the marriages of its own citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/26 "2014-09-16T17:19:21Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > The typical NYC City Hall wedding does stretch the definition of “ceremony” somewhat. If that’s what we’re going with, then a bail hearing is a ceremony, too. Actually, the New York City Clerk’s Office puts on a lovely [ceremony](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/fashion/weddings/surrounded-by-love-all-day-field-notes.html?_r=1&)in a beautiful location, at least since the [2009 renovation](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/nyregion/08marriage.html). Friends of mine planned a large, religious wedding near the bride’s hometown in Michigan, but realized that their travel schedules wouldn’t allow them to apply for a Michigan marriage license sufficiently in advance of the wedding. So, the week before, they got offiically married at the Manhattan Marriage Bureau on their lunch hour, with just a couple of their New York friends attending. It was a short, solemn and happy ceremony in a beautiful room within a tasteful suite in a historic government building. Perhaps the best part was seeing all of the happy couples and their family and friends, in all manner of dress – from casual couples to traditional white bridal dresses and formalwear, to bright traditional costumes. The next week, they had their Michigan ceremony with a religious officiant and big reception. Like my friends, I’m sure that Neil Patrick Harris and David Burtka had a small civil ceremony in New York and their celebration in Italy. New York Marriage [Law](http://law.onecle.com/new-york/domestic-relations/DOM014_14.html)provides that the [solemenization](http://law.onecle.com/new-york/domestic-relations/DOM012_12.html)of the marriage (that is the exchanging of “I dos” before a celebrant or other religious ceremony) must take place in New York. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/27 "2014-09-16T17:21:35Z")
I stand properly corrected. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/28 "2014-09-16T22:26:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I stand properly corrected. I’m not throwing in the towel yet. The language must only “substantially” comply with the pre-printed text. If one reads it literally, a person may only be married by one who resides in New York State and it also must be in the year “nineteen” something. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/29 "2014-09-16T22:30:17Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Whether you consider it relevant to this discussion or not, I am married to a person of the same sex here in Canada. We rushed into marriage in 2006 after living together only 30 years, so we have been legally married 8 years. > > So I am 100% in favour of SSM. I just think it is wrong to say they were married in Italy when Italy does not recognize either same-sex civil marriage nor same-sex religious marriage. > [@psychonaut](#): > > The institution of marriage long predates the institution of states. Do you also hold as invalid the untold millions of marriages contracted before governments started recognizing (and later regulating) them? This is what I was going to say. “Marriage” has always had multiple meanings—social, religious, and legal. They did the social part in Italy. It doesn’t matter that they couldn’t do the legal or religious parts there—actually, they could still have done the religious part if they held a ceremony with elements that they considered religious. No institution has a monopoly on these definitions. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/30 "2014-09-17T01:13:25Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m not throwing in the towel yet. The language must only “substantially” comply with the pre-printed text. If one reads it literally, a person may only be married by one who resides in New York State and it also must be in the year “nineteen” something. But [section 13](http://law.onecle.com/new-york/domestic-relations/DOM013_13.html) says that you only need a marriage licence if you intend “to be married in New York State”, and obviously [section 17](http://law.onecle.com/new-york/domestic-relations/DOM017_17.html) (which penalises a celebrant who celebrates a marriage without a licence having been presented) can’t be enforced outside New York. Really Not All That Bright suggests in post #25 that New York State can exercise jurisdiction over the marriage ceremonies of its residents, wherever celebrated. You could argue that that’s theoretically possible, but on the wording of the legislation it doesn’t appear that New York attempts to do so. Besides, the “full faith and credit” clause effectively makes it impossible for New York to exercise jurisdiction over the marriages of New York residents marrying elsewhere in the US. Given that, even if it were theoretically possible for the State to attempt to regulate the marriages of New York residents held outside the US, it would seem to be pointless. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/31 "2014-09-17T01:29:53Z")
Yeah! How could he?! _runs away sobbing_ ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/32 "2014-09-17T02:53:33Z")
I was married before my community in RI about a decade before I legally married in MA. Most people don’t say, “I was married at the Burbank City Clerk’s Office” or what have you. They say, “I was married on the beach (and not at all where the paper was signed and the fee was paid).” ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/33 "2014-09-17T11:26:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They _were_ married in Italy. That’s where the marriage was solemnized, [in accordance with the law of New York](http://law.onecle.com/new-york/domestic-relations/DOM012_12.html). Does New York jurisdiction extend to Italy? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/34 "2014-09-17T11:29:49Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > According to news stories, ( [Now Trending: Legendary! Neil Patrick Harris marries longtime partner in Italy - The Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/celebrity-news/the-a-list/now-trending-legendary-neil-patrick-harris-marries-longtime-partner-in-italy/article20471326/) ) actor Neil Patrick Harris married his long-time boyfriend David Burtka in Italy over the weekend. Did I miss something? When did Italy join the list of countries with same-sex marriage? I’m thinking you read it wrong: “NPH married his long-time bf DB: In Italy over the Weekend!” or “NPH married; His LTBF, DB, in Italy over the Weekend!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/35 "2014-09-17T13:20:39Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m not throwing in the towel yet. The language must only “substantially” comply with the pre-printed text. If one reads it literally, a person may only be married by one who resides in New York State and it also must be in the year “nineteen” something. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/36 "2014-09-17T16:45:01Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Does New York jurisdiction extend to Italy? Not usually, but in this case the parties agreed to submit to New York jurisdiction for purposes of their marriage. New York couldn’t enforce its marriage laws outside its jurisdiction but nothing would stop them from simply recognizing a marriage performed outside of its jurisdiction under its own licensing scheme. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/37 "2014-09-17T18:54:53Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The institution of marriage long predates the institution of states. Do you also hold as invalid the untold millions of marriages contracted before governments started recognizing (and later regulating) them? Ehhh… Is this true? I understood marriage to have been a secular institution required by local government long before it became anything else… ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/38 "2014-09-17T23:17:07Z")
nm; \*\*Billdo \*\*answered my Qs. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/39 "2014-09-18T01:13:52Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Ehhh… > > Is this true? I understood marriage to have been a secular institution required by local government long before it became anything else… Nope, it predates anything that looks remotely like modern government. Marriage is a social construct. Neither church nor state _create_ marriage, they _recognise_ it in so far as it’s relevant to their concerns, and they invest it with additional signficance and to some extent they regulate it, or try to. But ultimately neither church nor state can depart too far from the social reality. If you and your current squeeze consider yourselve to be married, and your family, friends and community regard you as married and treat you as married then, really, church and state have to come into line with the social reality, or they diminish their own relevance. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588/40 "2014-09-18T01:18:19Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not usually, but in this case the parties agreed to submit to New York jurisdiction for purposes of their marriage. New York couldn’t enforce its marriage laws outside its jurisdiction but nothing would stop them from simply recognizing a marriage performed outside of its jurisdiction under its own licensing scheme. In theory a state could do this. But nothing in the New York Code suggests that they do do this, and in practice its very unlikely that any state would wish to depart from the eminently sensible rule that the validity of marriage is determined by the _lex loci celebrationis_. It would lead to the anomalous situation that the couple concerned would be regarded as married in New York State, but nowhere else in the world, not even in other jurisdictions which recognise and celebrate same-sex marriage. It’s not clear why anyone would want that status, or why it would be considered a good thing to confer it on them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-neil-patrick-harris-marry-david-burtka-in-italy/698588.md?page=3)