I think you’re attributing the terrorists with super human powers. I think that the timing was just dumb luck because planes rarely fly on time.
IIRC, any plane that the President flies on automatically is designated Air Force One. Remember that Harrison Ford movie? As pointed out earlier, there are two official Air Force Ones.
Well, as pointed out elsewhere, the first flights of the day tend to be the ones most likely to leave on time.
My theory (before this thread gets thrown into GD): plane #4 was (I think) the last to depart, and flew the longest before turning back. Perhaps it was an “insurance policy” – one last shot to take out a target, in case the others missed.
Or perhaps the hijackers figured the Prez would immediately head back to Washington once the WTC was hit, and they timed their arrival to meet him at Andrews. (AF1 did initially head towards Andrews, but then suddenly veered to La. The Prez took some heat initially for not going straight home, but not anymore…)
guys…guys…GUYS! Sheesh.
From what I’ve heard, at no time in the phone call received saying something to the effect “AF1 is next”, was any mention made of an airplane as the weapon of choice. On Tuesday, when all hell is breaking loose, is it inconceivable to so many people here that a threat such as the one apparently given would have to include all possibilities? And that’s why for the most part AF1 was kept in the air? Why in the heck would anyone assume that just because airliners were being hijacked, that that was all there was? I wouldn’t have. I’ll bet the Secret Service didn’t either.
First, I think we’ve all heard by now that the plane which hit the Pentagon was probably intended to hit the White House.
The theory regarding AF1 is that the terrorists expected this:
Of course, if this was the plan, it was the only colossal blunder that was made, since I think it should have been apparent that the very last thing Bush would do would be to rush headlong back to DC in the midst of a televised assault.
~jon
Maybe this is a nit-pick, but that comment really caught my eye.
Yes, it’s a regular ole 747 with modifications. But the modifications are significant, to say the least.
PBS recently did an incredible behind the scenes program on the basics of Air Force One (I know that it’s only AF-1 when the president is on board, but I can’t think of the planes exact name off hand) and they went into limited details about the planes modifications.
Just one- out of many- modifications I remember them talking about were AF-1’s engines. The engineer they talked to said the engines were the most powerful engines ever put into a 747 frame. He went on to make comparisons to other commercial aircraft, but the gist was clear- this is a whole separate ball game here.
Saying that AF-1 is a regular 747 is like saying the presidents Limousine is just a regular ole Cadillac limo, with modifications- it is, and it isn’t.
The modifications are impressive, and leave it less like the original and more like a whole separate series.
I didn’t realise that AF1 was a 474 - I though it was a modified smaller coorporate jet.
But as mentioned the 747 is faster then a 757 + the 757 had much more fuel (AFAIK) since planes fill up only as much as they need for their trip (+reserve)and they were x-c flights.
BTW AF1 can stay up ‘indefentally’ w/ mid air fueling - so it had to be modified to allow this as mid air fueling in not a standard option on 747’s is it?
My professor in my graduate gas turbines class once made an offhand comment about the engines in AF1 being enormously powerful, and also enormously expensive to overhaul and maintain.
A 747 is faster than a 757, but the manuverability is poorer. But then again - trying to hit one plane with another on purpose is very difficult. AF1 could easily change its vector in enough time to avoid any subsonic civilian plane that was coming after it, or at least until there were about 20+ fighters in the air.
k2dave, I think it is the “Doomsday Plane” that can refuel in-air, not AF1. And in-air refueling is not a standard option on passenger jets, in answer to your other query.
Anyone know what the exact armament on AF1 is? I know I’ve seen it and IIRC they include both air to air missles and a cannon. Even without the fighter escort, I doubt the hijackers could have gotten it in the air.
I know this might sound kind of unpatriotic, but I wonder if there really was any threat to Air Force 1. A lot of people were critizing Bush for not coming back to Washington and suddenly his representatives say this and now no one blames him for not coming back. I can believe that the White House was a target, but not AF1. It just doesn’t seem “in character” with the rest of their plan. Either AF1 would have been up in the air and the terrorists would have been shot down, or it would have been on the ground and the prez wouldn’t have been on board anymore. Without him it’s not a very symbolic target.
Ariadne - The intention of the hijackers may have been to target AF1 while it was on the ground at Edwards Air Force Base. We simply don’t know at the moment. Whether the threat was real or not, it was the duty of the Secret Service and the Air Force officers on board to ensure the safety of the President. The President has very little say in the matter when the sh*t hits the fan. When conditions are chaotic as they were on Tuesday, it is better to be safe than sorry. It was a very simple choice: 1) fly into a dangerous and insecure location , or 2) fly to a known, secure location.
All this second guessing of the flight path of AF1 on tuesday is disheartening.
I think this is probably wild speculation put forward to add credibility to the rational for bush not returning to washington.
If the call did originate from the hijackers it was probably in the nature of a taunt.
I don’t think AF1 was a credible target, but the government had no way of knowing that. They said they intercepted communications which included codes indicating that the terrorists knew the plans of the president. So from their standpoint, the threat could have been five terrorists in various areas around Andrews AFB, each carrying a shoulder-mounted Surface to Air Missile like a Stinger. Don’t forget we gave the Afghanis and Bin Laden lots of Stingers to use against the Soviets, and trained them in how to use them effectively.
That was probably the primary threat model. It turned out not to be true, but it’s hard to blame the Secret Service for their caution in this instance.
The Jet that went down in Pennsylvania was probably aimed at the White House or Capital Building.
The USAF Fact Sheet on Air Force One says the two modified 747-200B’s/VC-25A’s have in-flight refueling capability. It also specifically says this is a modification not found on the standard civilian jumbo jet.
Not so quick there, evilhanz. I think what happened with the president, and AF1, on Tuesday, is extremely important.
To me, his actions at that moment, or at any moment of crisis, reveals a hell of a lot about his character.
Personally, I think it’s very important that our president act presidential in times of crisis.
First and foremost in that role is the duty to calm the nation, and at times, be inspirational.
Taking flight to a bunker in the middle of nowhere Nebraska, to me, isn’t all that inspirational.
I didn’t see Peter Jennings taking flight (Now, obviously, he isn’t a target of terrorist (Or maybe he is, I don’t know)), but he sure was in the middle of the action. And in many ways, he was inspirational in the midst of confusion and real danger.
*Now before you think I say that about the president because I have some vendetta or political leaning on that matter, rest assured, I don’t.
At a time like that, I couldn’t care less who’s in charge. Sheesh, as much as I disliked President Reagan, I give the guy credit and praise him for motivating the masses. I’d have given anything to see him in action on Tuesday.
Anyrate, I think the point people are making with what the president and AF1 were doing on Tuesday is that instead of heading to the scene of the crime, regardless of the danger, he retreated to a bunker, to wait for safer times.
If it wasn’t, I doubt the Secret Service would be so quick to reveal supposedly classified information explaining his actions on that Tuesday.
Even they are trying to put a spin on it that makes president look strong and fearless, rather than weak and frightened.
**Again, please don’t read this as a partisan shot, it isn’t. It’s an observation coming from guy who pays less attention to party affiliations, and more to actions, above all else.
Oh, and one quick note-
The president can, and often does, veto Secret Service wants or desires.
During elections and at other times, I routinely hear the press comment on how the Secret Service gets irritated at a president that makes unscheduled, or risky, stops to jump out and meet the people in the streets (In a motorcade, not AF1, silly. But I’d venture to guess it’s the same deal in AF1).
And finally, it’s the president we’re talking about here. If he wanted to go back to Washington, he’d have gone.
I mean, what, the Secret Service is going to ignore an order from the pres?
If the Secret Service got what it truly wanted, I doubt we’d ever see the president in public.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CnoteChris *
**
Oh, I disagree with this completely. COMPLETELY. As Commander-in-Chief the President’s first duty, at all times but especially in times of crisis, si to protect the country. And sometimes, that means protecting his own very important head. As awful and as terrible as Tuesday was, can you imagine what it would be like if they had also taken out the White House? The Capitol? THE PRESIDENT?!?!
I don’t give a s*** how it looks. With all hell breaking loose; with three suicide missions complete and one still in the air; with messages indicating AF1 is "next; protecting the Head of State is the ONLY justifiable course of action.
–Beruang
We seem to be fast on our way to GD here.
While I am certain the President in fairly mundane matters gets his way over the wishes of his watchdogs, when his security is seriously threatened, I doubt he gets to say much at all. Reports I have read indicate the President was the person who insisted on returning to the White House that day, otherwise he might have been in a bunker all night.
Riiiight.
They had to stop President Bush from taking over the controls of the plane, he wanted to go back so bad.
He’s the commanding in chief. It seems to me that whatever it is he says to his subbordinates, goes.
You can’t get much higher than president.
Personally, I think he listened to the Secret Service and what they wanted him to do- regardless of the reasons. Frankly, I think the guy was scared shitless.
But to cover it up, or more correctly, to put a spin on it that he really wanted to go there, despite warnings to do otherwise, is ludicrous- he went along with the advisors, whether it was right or wrong.
Everyone is processing this whole matter in their own way. Very few of us have enough detailed knowledge about any element of this to have a really informed opinion. So we speculate, guess, debate, brainstorm and wonder. So yes, this has veered somewhat away from GQ, but I don’t think we need to move it yet. Maybe some of the questions will even be answered. Who knows? - Jill
On Meet the Press this morning (9/16/2001), Dick Cheney reported that when the Secret Service realized that acts of terrorism were in progress, he was manhandled by several large agents into a bunker under the White House. He said himself that he had no say in the matter. No discussion was allowed.
Since this is already in GD territory,
I’ll address some of CnoteChris’ points:
No disagreement there.
In a time of crisis, his first duty is to exercise his Constitutionally authorized powers. The agents and officers around him are paid to ensure that he remains alive and in a position to do so. Any other considerations are secondary.
Actually, Omaha, Nebraska isn’t the middle of nowhere. The 55th Wing at Offutt Air Force Base home of the Strategic Air Command. There mission is as follows: “The 55th Wing is the largest and most diverse wing in Air Combat Command, executing worldwide reconnaissance, command and control, presidential support, treaty verification and airlift missions”. Sounds like a good place for the Pres to wait out the storm and a good place from which to conduct operations if need be.
Peter Jennings was about 80 blocks away from the devastation and most certainly NOT a target. Terrorists count on our media to spread word of the carnage as well as the message of those responsible. He was in no real danger.
The President is not a fireman or a police officer. His job is not to run headlong into the fire or storm a bank in the middle of a robbery. I’m not trying to play defense for the President, but IMHO he did as much as he could on Tuesday with the limited information available. He addressed the nation several times on Tuesday to reassure people, but I’m sure he was as stunned as the rest of us. Since Tuesday, I don’t think anyone can argue that his demeanor shows anything less than some of the finest qualities of leadership.