# How could we impeach Bush now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2007, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962 "2007-01-14T18:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/1 "2007-01-14T18:32:01Z")
I know, I know, he didn’t get a blowjob or anything like that, but I’m wondering if this whole “surge” thing could lead Congress to think “Hmmm, this guy doesn’t get it. Here the electorate says GET THE FUCK OUT OF IRAQ NOW YOU STUPID, STUPID MAN and he wants us to get more militaristic and cost more soldiers their lives. Maybe this is an impeachable offense?” (As Jerry Ford once noted, it’s anything a majority of Congress says it is, right?) Doesn’t this get the Republicans off the hook, too? Then they can say in 2008, “Hey, WE wanted him out too, don’t blame us for this stupid war.” (Answer to responses 1-12 is “Impeach Cheney at the same time”–it’s the same impeachable offense.) Anyway, I don’t want Bush-bashing here so much as an answer to the question: What practical obstacles are there to convincing leaders of both parties that impeaching Bush (and Cheney) is in their best interests? (If I’ve already gone over the top with my Bush-bashing, then move this please to GD, or the Pit, or wherever.) I got this idea from **Dan Blather** ’s post [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=404027), but I take full responsbility for this thread. I am, after all, the deciderer. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/2 "2007-01-14T18:39:07Z")
I beleive that the new Democratic leaders have already stated that although they could pursue an impeachment hearing (like you say, they define impeachable offenses) they will choose not do so. Instead they want to appear to take the high moral ground, work with President Bush and go into '08 electrons as the party of compromise, common sense and decency. Good luck, in politics no good dead goes unpunshied! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/3 "2007-01-14T18:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] (If I’ve already gone over the top with my Bush-bashing, then move this please to GD, or the Pit, or wherever.) [/quote] Moved to Great Debates. [sub] Sorry, tom[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/4 "2007-01-14T18:40:41Z")
[QUOTE=Si Amigo] I beleive that the new Democratic leaders have already stated that although they could pursue an impeachment hearing (like you say, they define impeachable offenses) they will choose not do so. Instead they want to appear to take the high moral ground, work with President Bush and go into 88 electrons as the party of compromise, common sense and decency. Good luck, in politics no good dead goes unpunshied! 😛 [/QUOTE] Can we edit post now? Obviously I meant the 08 elections. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/5 "2007-01-14T18:42:59Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] What practical obstacles are there to convincing leaders of both parties that impeaching Bush (and Cheney) is in their best interests? [/QUOTE] Why would it be in the best interests of the Pubs? ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/6 "2007-01-14T18:44:07Z")
The practical obstacle I see is that public opinion doesn’t support impeaching the president, the way it did in the summer of 1974. (The Clinton impeachment was an aberrant manifestation of gotcha politics.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/7 "2007-01-14T18:53:18Z")
So what if you impeached him? You wouldn’t get the 2/3 vote needed in the Senate to remove him from office. It would be a collosal waste of time just as the impeachment of Clinton was. Sure, it would make the partisans on the left feel better, but BFD. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/8 "2007-01-14T19:08:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Why would it be in the best interests of the Pubs? [/QUOTE] As per the OP, > [@](#): > > Doesn’t this get the Republicans off the hook, too? Then they can say in 2008, “Hey, WE wanted him out too, don’t blame us for this stupid war.” [QUOTE=John Mace] You wouldn’t get the 2/3 vote needed in the Senate to remove him from office [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Yoda] So sure, are you? Tried, have you? [/QUOTE] My serious answer, **John,** is that just impeaching him would send a message to the world as to how deeply the US regrets following this stupid turd into this quagmire, and to tell future Presidents that acting like a swaggering idiot may have consequences. We’re already given that message re: authorizing burglaries and getting mediocre head from Jewish girls, so it may worth sending re: starting moronic wars on trumped-up evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/9 "2007-01-14T19:24:36Z")
[QUOTE=BJMoose] The practical obstacle I see is that public opinion doesn’t support impeaching the president, the way it did in the summer of 1974. [/QUOTE] [Poll: Americans Support Bush Impeachment for Wiretapping](http://www.democrats.com/bush-impeachment-poll-2) > [@](#): > > For Release: January 16, 2006 > New Zogby Poll Shows Majority of Americans Support Impeaching Bush for Wiretapping > By a margin of 52% to 43%, Americans want Congress to consider impeaching President Bush if he wiretapped American citizens without a judge’s approval, according to a new poll commissioned by [AfterDowningStreet.org](http://AfterDowningStreet.org), a grassroots coalition that supports a Congressional investigation of President Bush’s decision to invade Iraq in 2003. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/10 "2007-01-14T19:44:09Z")
I think we have to get out of the Impeachment mindset. Or else, every President of the party not in power in Congress will get Impeached. OTOH, it’s time for the Repubs that voted for Clinton’s Impeachment to apologize. It was wrong and a purely political move. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/11 "2007-01-14T19:45:05Z")
OK, people. Think like a prosecutor for a minute. His job, in general, is not to decide guilt or innocence – that’s up to the judge and/or jury – but to decide, for each case, “Can I get a conviction on this? On what charge(s)?” His gut reaction that the guy may be guilty as a small child with a smeared face standing next to an opened and half-consumed box of chocolates, does not count. He needs to prove to a court of law that the guy is guilty of a criminal charge. Slight variation for the House: they get to decide what an “impeachable offense” might be. But in their thinking, they must be guided by what’s likely to get a conviction in the Court for the Trial of Impeachments, i.e., the Senate. Doing an impeachment where no conviction is likely is apt to redound on the impeachers, as it did with Clinton. Second point: While we may discuss hypotheticals (“Could Arnold Schwarzenegger get elected to three terms if the relevant portions of the Constitution were amended?”), there’s a very practical attitude in the general populace of the U.S. that impeachment should be reserved for the most heinous of offenses, e.g., the attempted wholescale subversion of an election by a sitting Administration that happened in Watergate, or being a Federal judge who is self-evidently a drunkard while on the bench and arguably insane. Doing things that annoy Republican majorities in Congress is insufficient grounds (the Johnson and Clinton impeachments). It doesn’t take much effort for the Democrats to claim the moral high ground there and refuse to impeach for annoying a Democratic majority – the ‘moral high ground’ is equivalent to the ‘highest mountain in Florida.’ Now, if we can get clear incontrovertible proof that Rove, Diebold, et al. subverted either the 2000 or 2004 election and that Bush was complicit in their schemes (notice the “if” – this is not a thread to make that accusation), that’s grounds on the Watergate precedent. If Mr. Bush willfully subverts a clear passage of the Constitution to further his policy, and let me be clear that I’m not talking what _I_ think it means but a clear Constitutional mandate or proscription that, say, **Bricker** would agree that that’s just what it says, that’s a definite high crime or misdemeanor. Allow me to be clear – I despise 85% of the man’s policies. I hold him morally guilty for the deaths of tens of thousands of people, including over a thousand U.S. soldiers and unknown numbers of innocent Iraqis (as well as a bunch of guilty Iraqis). If I were King Polycarp I of America and he my prime minister, I’d have fired him long since. But what we are talking about here is a balanced and temperate response, proportionate to the situation. I would love to see him drawn through the same dirt as Bill Clinton was, every peccadillo since that regrettable incident at boarding school brought into the public eye. But it would do no good, and substantial harm, to do so without any reasonable chance of removing him from office. And even then, we’d have set a new precedent that there are situations that justify removing a President from office. As it stands now, there are only two reasons for getting rid of a President that have set precedent: he’s dead, Jim; and he joined in a conspiracy to subvert the opposition to his own re-election. I think we need to think long and hard about what we want to add to that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/12 "2007-01-14T19:53:00Z")
You can brandish a gun without using it. Best be prepared to, if you must, but you don’t necessarily have to. If the impeachment meme gains any serious grounds, that is to say, moves from the realm of fantasy into the realm of the damned difficult, Bush may very well fold. He is a man of enormous historical vanity, he truly sees himself as a Leader of Men. Show him even a tenuous prospect of being the first American President to actually be removed from office, and he will beshit himself abundantly. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/13 "2007-01-14T19:54:09Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] there’s a very practical attitude in the general populace of the U.S. that impeachment should be reserved for the most heinous of offenses… If Mr. Bush willfully subverts a clear passage of the Constitution to further his policy… [/QUOTE] Such as violating the Fourth Amendment by ordering illegal wiretaps? Or deliberately misleading (read: lying to) the American public in order to get us into a war that violates the UN Charter, of which the U.S. is a signatory? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/14 "2007-01-14T19:58:22Z")
Time problem. If they pursue it they will spend the next year and a half getting nothing else done. His short term is his salvation. By the time they set it up he will be out of office. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/15 "2007-01-14T20:11:11Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Time problem. If they pursue it they will spend the next year and a half getting nothing else done. His short term is his salvation. By the time they set it up he will be out of office. [/QUOTE] I’d support impeaching the bastard even if it were the last day of his term. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/16 "2007-01-14T20:19:10Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] My serious answer, **John,** is that just impeaching him would send a message to the world as to how deeply the US regrets following this stupid turd into this quagmire, and to tell future Presidents that acting like a swaggering idiot may have consequences. We’re already given that message re: authorizing burglaries and getting mediocre head from Jewish girls, so it may worth sending re: starting moronic wars on trumped-up evidence. [/QUOTE] In that case, the better option would be to rescind the AUMF that allowed him to go to Iraq in the first place. That still wouldn’t stop him, but it would send a clear and targeted message. And you’d be wise to stop perpetuating the false meme that Clinton was impeached for a blow-job; at least if you want to be taken seriously aroudn here by anyone other than the wingnuts. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/17 "2007-01-14T20:22:33Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] And you’d be wise to stop perpetuating the false meme that Clinton was impeached for a blow-job; at least if you want to be taken seriously aroudn here by anyone other than the wingnuts. [/QUOTE] Okay, I’ll just call it partisan and personal jealousy, and we’ll forget all about the blowjob AND the handjob, too. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/18 "2007-01-14T20:33:59Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] But it would do no good, and substantial harm, to do so without any reasonable chance of removing him from office. [/quote] I disagree. I think the act of impeachment, whether or not his is convicted, sends a signal that Americans will not put up with the sort of monkeyshines Bush has displayed during his Presidency. I think it would send a message to the world that we are not above our own laws. [QUOTE=Polycarp] And even then, we’d have set a new precedent that there are situations that justify removing a President from office. As it stands now, there are only two reasons for getting rid of a President that have set precedent: he’s dead, Jim; and he joined in a conspiracy to subvert the opposition to his own re-election. I think we need to think long and hard about what we want to add to that. [/QUOTE] The President and our representatives swear oaths to defend and uphold the Constitution. First, there are compelling cases to be made that this President has violated his oath of office by subverting the Constitution. I believe he did, but my opinion isn’t legally binding. The only way to get a legally binding decision would be to impeach the President and let the evidence be brought forward in open court. Secondly, the Constitution states that a President can be impeached for ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’. The definition of these things are open to interpretation. Our representatives must decide weather violating the UN Charter, which has by our laws the strength of Law in this country, is a ‘crime’. I think it is, and it is therefore impeachable. Bill Clinton was not impeached for getting a blowjob. He was impeached for _lying_ about it. Bush lied to the American public in order to get us into this damned fool war. At the very least he disregarded facts that did not support his desire to wage war. But one might point out that ‘a half-truth is a whole lie’. It is my opinion that there is not a better precident to set than that a President must not violate the Constitution, or enter our country into wars of aggression – especially when he’s being extremely economical with the truth. Having said that, I don’t believe Bush will be impeached. If he is, then Cheney _et al_ would have to be impeached as well because of their intimate involvement in Bush’s schemes. It ain’t gonna happen. But if any president should be held to account, I think this one should. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/19 "2007-01-14T20:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] And you’d be wise to stop perpetuating the false meme that Clinton was impeached for a blow-job; at least if you want to be taken seriously aroudn here by anyone other than the wingnuts. [/QUOTE] You’d be wise to stop perpetuating the false meme that Clinton was **not** impeached for a blow-job; at least if you want to be taken seriously around here by anyone other than the wingnuts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962/20 "2007-01-15T04:21:22Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] We’re already given that message re: … getting mediocre head from Jewish girls,… [/QUOTE] Cite? I have to believe that if the man was willing to risk so much for it, it was far beyond “mediocre.” Sorry for the hijack, but seriously – can’t we at least imagine that it was WORTH IT? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-could-we-impeach-bush-now/387962.md?page=2)