how could you disable an attacking dog

[johnson]

While on a golf trip in Scotland, we for some reason got on the topic of what to do if a pit bull has latched on to you. A friend said he had heard you are supposed to stick a finger up its ass. Another friend, who’s usually in different circles, said he had heard the same thing. Is this some wacky Scottish urban legend, or is there truth? As jcgmoi said, “you would handle an attacking dog just as you would an attacking man”–Lord knows, I’d sure open my mouth…

Needless to say, hilarity ensued the remainder of the trip.

By the way, the rabies shots themselves are now just regular shots. The only one that was moderately uncomfortable was the immunoglobulin, which they give as close to the area of contact as possible. And don’t worry about trying to keep a dog from running off. If they can’t find it, you should be able to get the shots anyway (if your local health department has any idea what they’re doing).

[warmgun]

Well if a finger would work…
From now on , instead of pepperspray, I’m carring a huge dildo.
Think of what it’s owner would think!

[justwannano]

I broke up a dog fight one time Dumb Dumb Dumb By swinging my coat around in a large circle. The doberman seemed confused and ran off.I was yelling at the same time. Funny thing I was outside a doctors office waiting for them to open. I don’t know if my yelling had any effect upon the Doberman but the Drs office opened early.I was not bitten but that could be just luck.
I always thought I’d stick my hand down the dogs throat but after "playing a little rough with one of our dogs I have decided against that. The dog has a definate advantage.One thing I have Noted from everyones posts is that nobody has thought of breaking the dogs back. That area is vulnerable and large and a well placed blow or even just your weight might well break it.

[jbird3000]

*Originally posted by warmgun *
**Having a bit of MA background, I can tell you that theory jbird espouses won’t work. Things just happen too fast and distracting the dog’s focus is a dubious tactic.
I have two experences. In the first staring, yelling and charging worked. But I don’t think this dog was as intent as the second who was charging fast with obvious intent. I simply stood still until the last moment and kicked the shit out of the bottom of his throat. He started coughing trying to catch his breath (I suppose), got into his own head and walked away. I disagree with posters who say this is hard to do. Aiming and all. It was actually quite easy. Nor did it unbalance me. **

I mean when the dog ISN’T charging. It works real good when I play with my dog.

Also works when you want to snag a chip or a candy from someone (à la “Look over there”)

[dead0man]

I’m thinking some of you have never played/punished a big dog. Having been arround Pit Bulls, Rots, Chows, etc., the only thing that will work would be a hold or weapon. Unless you know how to fight I guess or are just really strong. I am niether, just like most people. I’ve seen Pits punched in the nose as hard as possible by a fairly strong guy and the dog didnt whelp or anything, just did what it was supposed to be doing when it got the punch(laying down). I dont recomend that kind of training but that was a good dog. I have kicked dogs that have gotten aggresive with me and it did make them stop, but it didnt seem to hurt all that much either. I think they stopped becuase they did not want another. A well trained and strong attack dog will keep going through a kick. And like someone else said, “attack” dogs are almost never alone. Despite some of the press’s love to demonize big dogs, most of them are not bad dogs. It is all in how you raise them. They are a lot like kids that way.
<hijack>
A more likly scenerio. How do you defend yourself against an oppossum or racoon? I’d think you’d be much more likely to be attacked by a large rodent than a big dog.
</hijack>
But back to the OP. I’d suggest trying not to put yourself in that situation. And thus, having added nothing to this thread, I must leave.

[edwino]

BTW :

If you are rasslin a dog (or an alligator), never try to hold the dog’s mouth open. The masseter (the muscle to close the mouth) the really strong, especially in big dogs. And alligators. A better strategy is to wrap your arm around its head to hold its jaw closed, as the platysma muscles in the neck responsible for opening the mouth are much weaker.

[Dinsdale]

Lots of interesting observations. It would take a pretty coiol customer to start playing nice/nice with an onrushing dog. Yeah, more than one dog really tips any odds away from you. Weapons, stick or knife, would be welcome.

I really don’t know about all of the comments concerning manipulating the dog’s jaws, either holding it shut or jamming your arm down the throat. I think I would want to keep the pointy things as far away from my soft pink parts as possible. Reminds me of some things I’ve heard concerning knife fighting. I have heard some people suggest “sacrificing” a limb. IMO that is stupid. In no way is getting cut a good thing. And the idea of “controlling/directing” the amount of damage is pretty far-fetched. Tho you probably will get cut in a knife fight, you sure as heck shouldn’t try to.

No one has commented on my suggestion concerning grabbing by the collar and trying to snap the back against a tree or post. I’m assuming if you failed to keep it away and the dog is on you, an instinctive move would be to grab the collar or the sides of the throat to keep the teeth away from you. Then, if you are sufficiently strong, you could cause some damage. One thing is that this approach really requires that you be able to switch into a self defense, take no prisoners mindset. Perhaps folk who do not fight regularly might have difficulty doing that.

zen, good points on kicking as well as dogs’ anatomy and behavior. Do you train JKD? If so, where and with who?

I’d like to say a couple of final things in favor of kicking over punching, tho. First, IMO the average person untrained in fighting has essentially no idea how to throw an effective punch. But they might have more experience kicking balls, etc. Throwing a lousy punch might be worse than throwing no punch. COuld injure you and put you in a vulnerable position. Second, if you are wearing shoes, your feet are less open to injury. Third, your legs are your longest weapon, and kicking would make contact with the dog as far from your vital areas as possible.

I read a novel once where a psycho actually trained himself against 2 attacking Rotts. He kidnapped other dogs for them to attack so he could study their methods. Kinda interesting, but I read it a long time ago.

Turn me on, dead0man. Agree with your observation on dogs’ ability to withstand blows. Knew a guy several years back. He had a higher impression of his own martial arts ability than he deserved, but he knew a little about how to throw a punch. Well, the guy was a drunken asshole, and he happened to have a sweet little pit, who was tough as nails. On more than one occasion I saw this drunken loser punch his dog in the ribs, and she showed absolutely no effect. Tough dog. And a sweetheart too. Too bad she had such a jerk for an owner.

Also, interesting observation about the coons and possums. Though I’ve never seen a possum show aggressive behavior, raccoons can be bad mother (watch your mouth)… One time my neighbor’s 100 pound shepard got completely chewed up by a coon. I always give coons a wide berth.

[vanilla]

My son and I were on the bus one day when we saw a little old lady walking her small poodle on a leash. A pit bull ran across the street and got it in a neck bite and enver let go. It was traumatic, but after doing some thinking, I now carry around a big lighter, which would be good for lighting and putting on the dog’s eyes or nose.
Maybe even some lighter fluid would help.

[zen101]

*Originally posted by Dinsdale *
**

zen, good points on kicking as well as dogs’ anatomy and behavior. Do you train JKD? If so, where and with who?**

No I have studied a lot of different arts but all the really good JKD masters in the PNW are either too expensive or have too limited enrollment (mainly focusing on people who train to compete). I have fought JKD in open tournaments and rate them comperable with TKD and Kempo for explosive power such as you want for the kind of hits I’m talking about. Also include Tiger style Kung Fu in there but soo few masters in the US that you aren’t likely to ever run into one.

**

I’d like to say a couple of final things in favor of kicking over punching, tho. First, IMO the average person untrained in fighting has essentially no idea how to throw an effective punch. But they might have more experience kicking balls, etc. Throwing a lousy punch might be worse than throwing no punch. COuld injure you and put you in a vulnerable position. Second, if you are wearing shoes, your feet are less open to injury. Third, your legs are your longest weapon, and kicking would make contact with the dog as far from your vital areas as possible.**

I was thinking on this some more last night and I worked up a scenario that pretty much anyone with a cool head who had at lease seen a karate movie would have a good chance of pulling off. A fwd snap kick as the dog leaps. You have a good shot because the dog is going to extend itself into the leap and if you crack the sternum/jaw/windpipe the dog it out of the fight. The only problem I have with my image is most people wear soft shoes. As you are probably aware the big drawback with a snap kick is busting a toe (I caught a pad seam on my big toe one time and lost a toenail. man I turned sissy real fast). Most untrained peope are going to have a harder time getting away with an injured foot than with the possible broken hand in my first scenario.

something people keep missing

I’m pretty sured the original OP made some specific statements as to the nature of this confrontation.

The dog is an attack dog, Any of you know the difference between an attack dog and a guard dog? Or the difference between either of them and a regular pissed off dog? A guard dog will try to chase you out of a specific area and usually bark and raise a ruckus. An attack dog is called so because it is not there to guard anything it is there to kill what is it set upon, or at least try to until called off by the proper command. No amounf of “come here boy! Good doggy!” is going to dissuade an attack dog. Might work on a normal dog but I get along with most dogs too well to find out.

You are unarmed. People mention getting weapons as an option. I agree that a weapon is preferable to going unarmaed into almost any situation, but it wasn’t an option. If I were to pick a weapon to use against a single attack dog it would be a toss up between a small club or bat or small fixed blade knife (about 5" blade or so). But the OP stated unarmed as the circumstance. Shit if I could just pick any weapon I would go with a stubby shotgun loaded with medium birdshot. Now admittedly you can usually find some kind of weapon if you know what to look for (advantages of familiarity with Escrima) but it was specified otherwise.

[Balduran]

I’m pretty sured the original OP made some specific statements as to the nature of this confrontation

Yeah, these where the conditions I was originally thinking about. However, it’s been very good hearing about the other scenarios too, I don’t have much experience with dogs so it’s good to know what confrontations can be avoided.

I ain’t no Zen or Dinsdale, but I have had a small amount of training, not enough to be able to come up with a good plan by myself though. It’s great to hear some expert analysis.

Ok, how about a rabid attack dog that can climb trees and carries a sharp pointy stick?

[Dinsdale]

Re kicking, I used to wear cowboy boots all the time. Once you get used to moving with the heels, with those cockroach killers and the ankle protection they provide, I felt pretty damn impervious. Recently I have been wearing Doc Marten casual/dress shoes. Again, my toes are well protected. But, when weather allows, I wear clogs and Birkies. I feel vulnerable with them on, both in terms of footwork and kicking, but I’m only gonna take this warrior shit so far… I’m sure you know folk, as I do, who make every clothing and footwear choice based in part on how it allows them to move, concealment of weapons, etc. While I won’t go that far, you can make statements such as, if you expect you might be walking in an iffy neighborhood at night, don’t wear a tight skirt and high heels. Just trying to bring the odds closer to your favor.

And of course there are many folk who make the choice to routinely carry a weapon, whether it be a gun, a knife, a collapsible baton, a palm stick, pepper spray, or whatever. So there is no reason that a person would necessarily HAVE to face this, or any other threat, “with their bare hands.” Of course, each individual’s resolution of the legalities, ethics, and other implications will control this factor.

To continue the hijack.

When I was in Seattle a couple of months back, I trained with Jesse Glover and Jim DeMile. Tho neither of them teach JKD, Jesse, especially IMO, teaches some good stuff. A couple of Jesse’s students teach as well and, from all reports I hear, are the “real deal.” Undoubtedly expensive, tho. Taky is also in Seattle, but he is getting up there, and teaches only a very few guys out of his home nowadays.

I know Steve Golden is also in Washington. Portland, I think? Thought there were quite a few other decent fighters out there as well. Isn’t Matt Thornton’s headquarters up thataways. I seem to recall Larry Hartsell and Rick Faye have some guys in Wash. And I know there are a couple of Vunak’s PFS guys, including Trevor Clarkson, up in Vancouver.

End of hijack. (We should probably continue this via e-mail so as not to bore the shit out of everyone else.)

[zen101]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by pweetman *
**

I’m pretty sured the original OP made some specific statements as to the nature of this confrontation

Ok, how about a rabid attack dog that can climb trees and carries a sharp pointy stick? **

Well I keep a hole in my pocket for just such an occasion.