How dangerous are wolves?

Factual Questions
21

** Perception of Danger **

This may be a bit of a hijack, but here it goes:

1] Coyotes have to be alert and aware of their environment, there might be wolves around and wolves are known to take out coyotes. So as a coyote is stalking and hunting a sheep, and a human shows up, it’s very natural for the coyote to respond immediately and focus on the human threat. They will snarl and/or run away.

2] Feral dogs behave the same way, perhaps for reasons of domestication, and wolves are known to take out feral dogs. So as a feral dog is stalking and hunting a sheep, and a human shows up, it’s very domesticated for the feral dog to respond immediately and focus on the human threat. They will snarl and/or run away.

3] Wolves don’t have to worry about wolves being about for the most part. So as a wolf is stalking and hunting a sheep, and a human shows up, the wolf regards the human as just another prey species and treats the arrival is no concern at all, they simply ignore the human.

Humans with their massive inferiority complex do not react well to being ignored, and they do not react well to being treated as a prey species of last resort. The hatred is real but it’s based on overblown ego, not on any real danger. “Wolves are dangerous” is just some lame excuse to shoot them out of helicopters (which is fucking cheating).

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Wolves may have twice the biting force as dogs, but that’s not a real consideration. It’s extremely dangerous to the wolf to sink their teeth, with full force, into the hindquarters of an elk running 30 mph. That a good way to get hung up and probably kicked in the head a few dozen times.

Wolf packs specialize on the “chase” stage of predation. Each individual of the pack runs the elk for a short time and then another runs the elk thus exhausting the elk long before any of the wolves are. If the chaser should catch up the to elk, the wolf will only nip the hindquarters, not to break the skin but rather to bruise the flesh. Ten or twenty bruises to the hindquarters and the elk is going to slow down and fall to the ground.

At this point the “pouncing” phase is academic, and the “kill” phase so much safer for the wolves. When the elk is down, bite force is kinda immaterial.

22

Coyotes take small pets as prey all the time. They rarely attack adult humans, but have been known to attack small children. Coyotes are much smaller than wolves and usually don’t hunt in packs. Usually not, but they have been known to form packs at times.

You are misinformed if you think they are “totally harmless”.

23

Well, wolves are much closer to being a top predator than a coyote is, for sure. But wolves can be chased off kills by hears, especially grizzlies.

With all due respect, that sounds more like an interesting folk tale than actual science (especially the second part). Do you have a cite to back any of that up?

24

Grizzlies don’t prey on wolf packs … generally … and the danger to the kill is over by the time the grizzly steals it.

Please note change in order of quoted text

Are you asking for a scientific cite for the perception of danger? That might be a little thin at best. From the spirit of the OP’s “as a general point of discussion”, I offer these points relying on a lack of citations confirming wolves killing humans and using humans as a food source. Once we look at financial risks, I think we find the danger from wolves, dogs and coyotes about the same. Wolves seem to think they’re the top-of-the-food-chain, and act in ways that humans perceive as far more menacing that the data really shows.

That’s really a shame … my principle evidence are those luxury high-rise condominiums on Grandma’s property that Little Red finalized and signed off on two days after the funeral. The added tax-base says it’s the wolf’s fault.

25

Are we talking wolves in Europe or North America?

You really need to read the book MANEATERS. The book is about animals on land and sea that really do go after humans (the author claims the cheatah is the worse).

What the author says is that while most animals fear humans, that fear can be changed by a combination of conditioning and opportunity. Once an animals finds humans an easy prey, the behavior is taught and spreads to become a very dangerous situation.

Now its been awhile since I read the book but the author says you need to look at American wolves differently than European wolves because more wars have been fought in Europe.

The scenario: during war the wolf population goes up because they quit being hunted. A wolf pack comes across a human body dead because of a war. They eat the human. They then lose their fear of humans and actually find them an easier source of food than say deer and rabbits. After the war ends they dont have the same fear and thus will prey on humans.

The author cites examples of this in the forests of France, Spain, and Germany where wolf killings went up during and after wars.

It’s similar the author says in Africa where a lion comes across humans sick and dieing from disease or hunger and thus find humans easier prey than say water buffalo and thus start to prey on humans. The author has another book called DEATH IN THE LONG GRASS where he talks about professional hunters who go after these killer lion packs.

So long story short, while I’d say in most cases wolves wont attack humans, I’d rather not be lost in a forest with 2 broken legs with a hungry pack of wolves in the area.

26

But it’s not good to lose a kill. The pack does all the work, and another animal gets the food.

I’m asking for a cite for these:

  1. “So as a wolf is stalking and hunting a sheep, and a human shows up, the wolf regards the human as just another prey species and treats the arrival is no concern at all, they simply ignore the human.”

  2. “Humans with their massive inferiority complex do not react well to being ignored [by wolves]”

I won’t ask for a cite that hunting by helicopter is “cheating” as that is clearly your opinion, not a fact.

27

Replying to OP’s direct question of the physical difference of a wolf vs a German Shepherd vs a Pit Bull:

Average male weight and height according to google:

American Pit Bull Terrier 35-65 lbs, 19 inches
German Shepherd 66-88 lbs, 24-26 inches
Gray Wolf 66-180 lbs, 31-33 inches (comparable to a Mastiff, also there’s this picture for reference http://www.lazerhorse.org/2013/09/05/big-wolf/)

Nuff said?

All in I’d rather rumble with a canine that weighs less than me, isn’t as tall as my crotch, and has a few thousand years of specific breeding to make it more human compatible rather than an intelligent pack hunter.

28

When I posted the question, I was thinking merely of the physical damage a wolf could as opposed to a German Shepherd or a Neapolitan Mastiff.

The ensuing discussion fascinates me, and now I am also interested in the camping question, especially the difference between camping in the New World – say, Montana – as opposed to the Russian steppes.

29

It can tear the shit out of the toe of your shoe. A wolf, on the other hand, could basically rip your hand clean off, but probably won’t unless you shove your hand down its throat or you are wounded and lost way in the backcountry. The only person who really needs to fear wolves is Liam Neeson, and only because word has gotten around the lupus community about the defamation of character from that film.

On the other hand, domestic dogs and their feral kin like dingos are sufficiently habituated to humans that they are not fearful and may be brave enough to hunt and attack humans.

Stranger

30

I’ve had a little fun researching this. :slight_smile:

This site has a wide variety of useful information. I’ve linked to the section on wolves and humans. It includes links to how to be safe in wolf country (areas where wolves are known to live) and reports on wolf attacks.

Similar to bears in some respects, danger appears to increase where wolves are more prevalent, and where wolves have been habituated to humans in some manner (I took this to mean they have been fed, for example).

The other report cited on the site is summarized as being worldwide, but I’ll need to do a little more digging to find out whether Siberian attacks, for example, are specifically called out.

Of note, North American wolves appear to be larger than those on other continents. Size also increases the further north you go.

It appears overall that being in wolf country, like being in mountain lion or bear country, is generally safe, but can occasionally be dangerous.

To your first question about whether a domestic dog (let’s specify known large and occasionally dangerous breeds) could do more damage than a wolf, I would guess it depends on the specific animal in question. If you specified that the animals were alike in as many physical ways as possible, size, gender, etc, and that both animals were intent on attacking, my belief is that the wolf would be more dangerous. Candidly with either animal, wolf or dog, you would be at risk of severe injury or death. Wolves, however, are upper level predators that can take down a Moose. In this scenario, I would imagine that the wolf has been raised hunting animals and is more likely to do severe damage. It might just be a question of efficiency though, assuming both animals want to attack. Large dogs can and do kill humans.

31

I’m afraid these are anecdotes and not data, but I live in southern CA and I can share the following stories:

–A friend and her BIG dog (a ridegback) were stalked by a pack of coyotes in a residential area.
–A relative caught two coyotes pulling the old “one distracts the prey while the other circles around” ploy on her beagle.
–I was stalked by a coyote while jogging around an athletic field

The coyotes here are becoming bolder. I believe this is because the drought is forcing them to look for more prey around humans instead of in parks, and they have learned that humans aren’t going to do much to them. Granted, I scared off the coyote stalking me by yelling at it, but I was pretty surprised it would get even that bold with a grown human.

32

My neighborhood has walking paths running through it. Groups of coyotes roam up and down the paths, particularly at night. I hear them howling and yipping. When I lived in the Santa Cruz mountains, I would also hear groups of them at night. Not sure if they just like to talk to each other, or if they’re really cooperative.

33

FYI, here are only about 550 wolves in Montana. Over 2,000 in Minnesota. People probably don’t think of Minnesota as wolf country, but that’s where you find the most wolves in the lower 48.

34

Personally, I’d be a lot more worried if a mountain lion were hunting me than if a wolf, or even pack of wolves, were. The things that make wolves good at hunting are mostly things that humans are even better at: A wolf can’t (or at least, shouldn’t be able to) outsmart a human the way it does a møøse. But a mountain lion can sure as heck sneak up on a human.

35

Frankly, I’d be more worried about venemous snakes, insects, and the various natural hazards than large animals. I’ve have spend weeks in the backcountry, hiked through the Four Corners, Sierras, Yosemite, San Gabriels, et cetera, and have had “adverse interactions” with large wildlife exactly twice; once a bear that decided to try to walk away with my backpack which I’d set down while assessing the campsite and was convinced to drop it by throwing sticks and yelling, and one particularly troublesome marmot who was insistant on wanting to get into my tent and was only finally dissuaded by a well-placed rock to the head.

Stranger

36

I live in Mountain Lion country … they’re definitely a threat to dogs and cats … not so much to humans … but GEEZZZZZ:

"Cougar Gets Into Oregon House Through Dog Door, Scary Incident Shows State’s Problem Worsening "

Compared to:

From the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife

“But it’s just the kids, right?” – Jim Varney from Ernest Scared Stupid

37

How did you establish that, exactly? All of the studies on canine bite force I’ve seen indicate it’s based primarily on the dog’s size. A 250 pound mastiff can bite far harder than a wolf. Of course, a 90 pound wolf can bite far harder than a 40 pound pit bull. A 40 pound pit bull can kill a person.

And how did we establish that bite force is a major factor in the danger of the animal? Bite force for a T-rex might be important, but not for wolves. Wolves manage to kill large animals not because they bite hard, but because they work cooperatively in groups. Watch some videos of wolves killing things. They dart in and out and nip and retreat, trying to exhaust the animal and make it bleed to death.

I think we should go with statistics that show that wolves very rarely kill people. Ergo, they aren’t very dangerous. Cows, however, are. And they don’t even bite.

38

according to Wiki, only 8 people have died and 35 wounded in wolf attacks since 1900 in the US.

You probably have that number per year from dogs…

39

Besides, half the force applied twice as long delivers equal energy for equal mass.

40

Isnt there a perception that a wolf is an evil animal. That it can stalk a human for many days and that it hever forgets a humans routine etc so that it can lay in wait. Perhaps its cunning is translated to evil intent by us. But the zeal with whch they were eradicated in parts of the world indicates that this animal was most feared by humans.