# How Democrats should talk about socialism **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 3, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950 "2019-06-03T14:11:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/101 "2019-06-05T19:26:51Z")
Bernie Sanders provides an example of how to talk about socialism for his fellow Dems - [disown its history](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-soviet-union-venezuela-not-examples-failed-socialism): > [@](#): > > Sanders, I-Vt., dismissed the connection between the failed socialist states and his own vision for America, during an interview on Comedy Central’s “The Daily Show” Tuesday. > > “Obviously, Soviet Union was an authoritarian society with no democratic rights, and I think if you know history, you know the democratic socialists fought and stood up against that,” the 2020 Democratic hopeful said. > > “You can look at what existed in the Soviet Union or Venezuela, that is not what I’m talking about at all.” That’s right, Bernie thinks the “democratic socialists” fought _against_ the USSR and Chavez / Maduro regimes. LOL! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/102 "2019-06-05T19:28:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Good points and also raises an interesting question. How is it that forced collectivization be it called “radical” socialism or communism is not 1/100th as toxic as fascism? Especially with the historical body count associated with both of these systems of government. My guess would have to be that there is an ideological affinity for collectivism among academia and such that sugar coats the present and historical realities of that system. Well, do you consider what we have to be as toxic as fascism? You pay taxes for social services. That you choose to call paying taxes towards providing public services as “radical” socialism or communism doesn’t make them so. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/103 "2019-06-05T19:33:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Bernie Sanders provides an example of how to talk about socialism for his fellow Dems - [disown its history](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-soviet-union-venezuela-not-examples-failed-socialism): > > That’s right, Bernie thinks the “democratic socialists” fought _against_ the USSR and Chavez / Maduro regimes. LOL! Yeah, that army wasn’t paid for by the people who voted for it to exist, right? LOLz all the way to anyone that didn’t know that the we use all volunteer armies with private funding. Or maybe you were missing the point that he was explaining what a democratic socialist was, but you are insisting that you already know. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/104 "2019-06-05T19:47:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s right, Bernie thinks the “democratic socialists” fought _against_ the USSR and Chavez / Maduro regimes. LOL! Did they not? Cite? I was under the impression that Democratic Socialists all across the West, but including in the US, were pretty clearly opposed to the Soviet system. ---
**Author:** ![neutro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/105 "2019-06-05T22:29:56Z")
I think the dems need to change the messaging if they want to get the middle voters to show up in the swing states. I hope to hell they slow down on this socialism branding because I don’t think it helps one bit. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/106 "2019-06-06T16:22:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who says it’s not “as toxic as fascism”? I hear my conservative acquaintances deriding liberals as communists just as often as I heary my liberal acquaintances deriding conservatives as fascists. Because liberals have included those who expressed sympathy for Communists, have identified as Communists, and have been members of the CPUSA. And as long as I’m replying to a post of yours; few people are going to see your medical care while on active duty as equivalent to Medicare for All. It was a benefit included with your job as an inducement to work for the USN (a particularly demanding job), while MfA is just another benefit perceived to be available for free to those who are not working/ earning it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/107 "2019-06-06T17:22:57Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Because liberals have included those who expressed sympathy for Communists, have identified as Communists, and have been members of the CPUSA. I don’t understand how this is relevant. Especially because “conservatives” have included those who expressed sympathy for fascists and even identified as fascists (or white supremacists, or white nationalists, or neo-Nazis, or some similar group). > [@](#): > > And as long as I’m replying to a post of yours; few people are going to see your medical care while on active duty as equivalent to Medicare for All. It was a benefit included with your job as an inducement to work for the USN (a particularly demanding job), while MfA is just another benefit perceived to be available for free to those who are not working/ earning it. I didn’t bring it up to show some sort of “equivalence” – I brought it up to demonstrate that, factually, government can and does run a health care program that provides excellent care. So that anyone who says that government is incapable of this is factually wrong, and this is the evidence (which doesn’t mean that all government health programs will necessarily be this good). ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/108 "2019-06-06T17:29:41Z")
nm, screwed up a quote. ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/109 "2019-06-06T20:05:46Z")
In the 50s, didn’t the British get around the S word by calling it “nationalization”? This, as in nationalized health care, nationalized petroleum, etc. Ironically, the hypocrites branded Iranian President Mossadegh a pinko when he attempted to nationalize his country’s oil industry using the British system as a model. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/110 "2019-06-06T21:30:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, do you consider what we have to be as toxic as fascism? You pay taxes for social services. No. It’s not bad paying taxes for public goods and services while fascism is quite unhealthy for quite a few folks. > [@](#): > > That you choose to call paying taxes towards providing public services as “radical” socialism or communism doesn’t make them so. Having a nation that respects private property and individual liberties while collecting taxes and spending on public goods is not the same as collectivism which includes socialism and communism. Public spending is not necessarily socialism. Trying to equate any public spending with socialism and then saying “look, public spending is ok therefore socialism is ok” is nothing more than a tricky rhetorical technique. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/111 "2019-06-06T22:59:59Z")
Since this thread is still going, thought I’d link to [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4rJFEYSyCo) video on YouTube from VisualPolitik, that talks about Democratic Socialism, Ocasio-Cortez and the Nordic model, since it, again, illustrates to me the disconnect between Democrats, Americans in general, and what the Nordic states are and aren’t wrt socialism…and the fact that a lot of the things AOC and Bernie advocate differ quite a bit from what the Nordic model actually is in a lot of cases (admittedly, a lot of what they want IS part of that model). ---
**Author:** ![Haldurson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/51bf81/32.png) [@Haldurson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haldurson)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/112 "2019-06-09T03:12:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IMO, Democrats should emphasize that we already have a hybrid system, and have for many decades – many of our institutions are socialized (i.e. run by the government – whether local, state, or federal), and many non-socialized institutions and sectors are regulated by government. We should emphasize that some things (defense, fire-fighting, law enforcement, etc.) have been proven to be more effective and efficient when socialized, and other things are clearly more effective and efficient when delivered by the free market (entertainment and leisure, for example, as well as many tech industries), with many involving both government and the free market. We should reiterate that socialism shouldn’t be feared, since it’s been part of the American system since its founding. > > IMO this should be the basis when beginning discussions of things like universal health care. If we’re capitulating to the framework of black and white “socialist vs capitalist” debates, then we’re going to lose those debates. Not to mention the disaster that privatizing prisons turned out to be. Who would have guessed that incentivizing warehousing more and more people for long periods of time could have negative consequences? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/113 "2019-06-09T22:53:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t understand how this is relevant. Especially because “conservatives” have included those who expressed sympathy for fascists and even identified as fascists (or white supremacists, or white nationalists, or neo-Nazis, or some similar group). i don’t understand how you don’t see this is relevant because it is an exact answer to your quoted post. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I didn’t bring it up to show some sort of “equivalence” – I brought it up to demonstrate that, factually, government can and does run a health care program that provides excellent care. So that anyone who says that government is incapable of this is factually wrong, and this is the evidence (which doesn’t mean that all government health programs will necessarily be this good). I do not agree the care in the USN was/ is '“excellent”, it is really expensive, and the VA is probably more representative of how the gov’t would run public care. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/114 "2019-06-09T23:22:20Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > i don’t understand how you don’t see this is relevant because it is an exact answer to your quoted post. My question was “Who says it’s not “as toxic as fascism”?” If your answer is the truly minuscule portion of “liberals” who praise communism and advocate for "forced collectivism, then okay, but that’s almost no one. Certainly not Bernie or AOC or any other prominent progressives. > [@](#): > > I do not agree the care in the USN was/ is '“excellent”, it is really expensive, and the VA is probably more representative of how the gov’t would run public care. In my experience, it was excellent. As good or better than the health care I’ve received as a civilian (and much cheaper for the consumer in out-of-pocket spending, as well as hassle and paperwork). ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/115 "2019-06-09T23:56:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My question was “Who says it’s not “as toxic as fascism”?” If your answer is the truly minuscule portion of “liberals” who praise communism and advocate for "forced collectivism, then okay, but that’s almost no one. Certainly not Bernie or AOC or any other prominent progressives. Your next sentence was " I hear my conservative acquaintances deriding liberals as communists just as often as I hear my liberal acquaintances deriding conservatives as fascists." I’m saying there were actual Communist Party members among the group called ‘liberals’, and I am unaware of any real fascists among American conservatives. Which is why deriding liberals as ‘communists’ has more foundation than calling conservatives ‘fascists’. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In my experience, it was excellent. As good or better than the health care I’ve received as a civilian (and much cheaper for the consumer in out-of-pocket spending, as well as hassle and paperwork). Yes, you already said that was your experience. When I called it expensive, I certainly did not mean \*your \*out of pocket expenses. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/116 "2019-06-10T09:16:08Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Your next sentence was " I hear my conservative acquaintances deriding liberals as communists just as often as I hear my liberal acquaintances deriding conservatives as fascists." I’m saying there were actual Communist Party members among the group called ‘liberals’, and I am unaware of any real fascists among American conservatives. Which is why deriding liberals as ‘communists’ has more foundation than calling conservatives ‘fascists’. I’m aware of conservatives who are fascists. Your unawareness doesn’t mean they don’t exist. In my experience, there are significantly more neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and white nationalists than communists in the US, and the former groups can reasonably be characterized as fascist (and are just as conservative as communists are liberal). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/117 "2019-06-10T12:30:53Z")
Exactly, and you’d have to broaden the label to include anarchists to get any comparable far-left violent rallies, and even if you do, the liberal Presidents don’t say “i’m sure there are some good people among them.” ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/118 "2019-06-10T15:15:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m aware of conservatives who are fascists. Your unawareness doesn’t mean they don’t exist. In my experience, there are significantly more neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and white nationalists than communists in the US, and the former groups can reasonably be characterized as fascist (and are just as conservative as communists are liberal). ‘In your experience’ is anecdotal, and anyone who disagrees with left positions gets labeled as neo-Nazi, white supremacists, and white nationalists, then you add “fascist” to them. I’m unconvinced. > [@Ludovic](#): > > Exactly, and you’d have to broaden the label to include anarchists to get any comparable far-left violent rallies, and even if you do, the liberal Presidents don’t say “i’m sure there are some good people among them.” Trump was talking about the people on both sides of the \*statue \*debate. I’m sure everyone who wanted to keep the statues were fascists, right? and therefore can be safely dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/119 "2019-06-10T15:43:51Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > ‘In your experience’ is anecdotal, and anyone who disagrees with left positions gets labeled as neo-Nazi, white supremacists, and white nationalists, then you add “fascist” to them. I’m unconvinced. And I’m unconvinced by your anecdotal reports. > [@](#): > > Trump was talking about the people on both sides of the \*statue \*debate. I’m sure everyone who wanted to keep the statues were fascists, right? and therefore can be safely dismissed. Anyone who marched alongside those chanting “Jews will not replace us!” and carrying swastika flags (and much more!) can reasonably be characterized as, at best, Nazi/fascist tolerant. I don’t believe anyone who is tolerant of Nazi-ism and fascism is a “good person”, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/120 "2019-06-10T16:08:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … In my experience, there are significantly more neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and white nationalists than communists in the US… Why should anyone accept your limited experience with a minute fraction of the American populace as indicative of a national trend? ETA: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And I’m unconvinced by your anecdotal reports. … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950.md?page=7)