# How Democrats should talk about socialism **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 3, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950 "2019-06-03T14:11:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/121 "2019-06-10T20:11:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Anyone who marched alongside those chanting “Jews will not replace us!” and carrying swastika flags (and much more!) can reasonably be characterized as, at best, Nazi/fascist tolerant. I don’t believe anyone who is tolerant of Nazi-ism and fascism is a “good person”, but YMMV. You are changing what was brought up. Trump referred to people on both sides of the stature debate, you are moving to the much smaller group of wannabe Nazis (self proclaimed with their regalia) and whatever the chant was/ who was chanting (I have not heard the recording; I have heard they were saying YOU will not replace us, but whatever). I know we have differences, but describing all or most Republicans and/ or right of center Americans as fascists is a calumny and, worse, avoids any resolution of our differences. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/122 "2019-06-10T20:14:33Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > You are changing what was brought up. Trump referred to people on both sides of the stature debate, you are moving to the much smaller group of wannabe Nazis (self proclaimed with their regalia) and whatever the chant was/ who was chanting (I have not heard the recording; I have heard they were saying YOU will not replace us, but whatever). > > I know we have differences, but describing all or most Republicans and/ or right of center Americans as fascists is a calumny and, worse, avoids any resolution of our differences. I’m talking about the people who marched at Charlottesville, and so was Trump. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/123 "2019-06-10T20:28:30Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Exactly, and you’d have to broaden the label to include anarchists to get any comparable far-left violent rallies, and even if you do, the liberal Presidents don’t say “i’m sure there are some good people among them.” Are antifa anarchists? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/124 "2019-06-11T05:20:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m talking about the people who marched at Charlottesville, and so was Trump. Yeah. [https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump\_didnt\_call\_neo-nazis\_fine\_people\_heres\_proof\_139815.html](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump_didnt_call_neo-nazis_fine_people_heres_proof_139815.html) An excerpt: "Here are the unambiguous actual words of President Trump: “Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.” After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit: “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”" ---
**Author:** ![UnwittingAmericans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d9b06d/32.png) [@UnwittingAmericans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwittingAmericans)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/125 "2019-06-11T07:28:23Z")
Democrats should talk about socialism the same way they would talk about pedophilia. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/126 "2019-06-11T09:19:20Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Yeah. [https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump\_didnt\_call\_neo-nazis\_fine\_people\_heres\_proof\_139815.html](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump_didnt_call_neo-nazis_fine_people_heres_proof_139815.html) > > An excerpt: > > "Here are the unambiguous actual words of President Trump: > > “Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.” > > After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit: > > “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”" You know what to call people who march alongside Nazis who are wearing and carrying Nazi/racist flags and regalia? Nazis. Not “very fine people”. The marchers were Nazis, racists, and white supremacists. Trump’s explanation is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/127 "2019-06-11T10:14:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You know what to call people who march alongside Nazis who are wearing and carrying Nazi/racist flags and regalia? Nazis. > > Not “very fine people”. The marchers were Nazis, racists, and white supremacists. Trump’s explanation is bullshit. I’m not one to take that first paragraph _too_ far, but it’s definitely appropriate in a rally called “Unite the Right”: those who did not want to be considered “united” with Nazis should not have come. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/128 "2019-06-11T15:58:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You know what to call people who march alongside Nazis who are wearing and carrying Nazi/racist flags and regalia? Nazis. > > Not “very fine people”. The marchers were Nazis, racists, and white supremacists. Trump’s explanation is bullshit. So if you march with Communists, does that make you a Communist? Because I have seen Communists marching at a lot of left-wing marches. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/129 "2019-06-11T16:06:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So if you march with Communists, does that make you a Communist? Because I have seen Communists marching at a lot of left-wing marches. If the communists are dominating the march, shouting communist slogans, and carrying well known communist imagery on flags, then IMO, yes, you can be reasonably characterized as a communist (or communist-enabler). ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/130 "2019-06-11T19:29:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You know what to call people who march alongside Nazis who are wearing and carrying Nazi/racist flags and regalia? Nazis. > > Not “very fine people”. The marchers were Nazis, racists, and white supremacists. Trump’s explanation is bullshit. Okay, I’ll repeat: After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit: “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” I’d like someone better to be President, too, but focus on something substantial that doesn’t sound to others as fake news. There are real issues with Trump, and this isn’t one to beat him with. (Neither is ‘collusion’. IMHO.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/131 "2019-06-11T19:32:43Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Okay, I’ll repeat: > > After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit: > > “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” > > I’d like someone better to be President, too, but focus on something substantial that doesn’t sound to others as fake news. There are real issues with Trump, and this isn’t one to beat him with. (Neither is ‘collusion’. IMHO.) Trump’s a liar, which shouldn’t be news to anyone. He praised the Charlottesville “Unite the Right” marchers; the Charlottesville “Unite the Right” marchers were white supremacists and neo-Nazis. He praised white supremacists and neo-Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/132 "2019-06-12T16:53:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Trump’s a liar, which shouldn’t be news to anyone. He praised the Charlottesville “Unite the Right” marchers; the Charlottesville “Unite the Right” marchers were white supremacists and neo-Nazis. He praised white supremacists and neo-Nazis. We are going to remain in disagreement, then. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/133 "2019-06-12T16:54:42Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > We are going to remain in disagreement, then. Except that one of you is arguing \*with \*the facts, the other \*against \*them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/134 "2019-11-04T14:42:06Z")
Bumping this with an interesting article that mirrors the arguments I’ve made: [https://www.thenation.com/article/socialism-united-states-military/](https://www.thenation.com/article/socialism-united-states-military/) > [@](#): > > The US Military Is a Socialist Organization > Affordable housing and food, tuition assistance, and universal health care are hallmarks of a social welfare system—and life in the armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/135 "2019-11-04T15:13:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IMO, Democrats should emphasize that we already have a hybrid system, and have for many decades – many of our institutions are socialized (i.e. run by the government – whether local, state, or federal), and many non-socialized institutions and sectors are regulated by government. We should emphasize that some things (defense, fire-fighting, law enforcement, etc.) have been proven to be more effective and efficient when socialized, and other things are clearly more effective and efficient when delivered by the free market (entertainment and leisure, for example, as well as many tech industries), with many involving both government and the free market. We should reiterate that socialism shouldn’t be feared, since it’s been part of the American system since its founding. > > IMO this should be the basis when beginning discussions of things like universal health care. If we’re capitulating to the framework of black and white “socialist vs capitalist” debates, then we’re going to lose those debates. Way to break the KISS rule. The Republicans will respond with something like “See! Democrats have been letting Socialism creep into our system for decades, and a lot of the time they were the instigators!” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/136 "2019-11-04T15:20:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Way to break the KISS rule. Okay – a simpler argument: “We’ve always been partially socialist”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/137 "2019-11-04T15:26:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay – a simpler argument: “We’ve always been partially socialist”. Republican response: “And we are the only ones that can fix that defect. We can make America great!” ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/138 "2019-11-04T16:09:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If we’re capitulating to the framework of black and white “socialist vs capitalist” debates, then we’re going to lose those debates. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Too much of the electorate sees things in only black and white and cannot distinguish any shade of gray. To them, socialism=communism=evil and whether it’s 100% socialism or 1% socialism is immaterial. Agree with both points, and I think the response should be to hoist the conservative right on their own petard. They’ve defined “socialist” to the American public as meaning “a dictatorship runs things and everything is run by the state”. Initiatives like universal health care should be billed as akin to the interstate highway system or having a police force. The current clown-in-chief should be called a socialist. He’s a puppet of the Russians, he aspires to dictatorship, and he wants to run everything instead of letting the states go their own direction. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/139 "2019-11-04T16:12:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Republican response: “And we are the only ones that can fix that defect. We can make America great!” That’s a weak argument, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950/140 "2019-11-04T16:29:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s a weak argument, IMO. Listen carefully: You need to understand that the target of the message is not yourself, and it is not those who already agree with you. It is those out there with busy lives and little time for detail. If you want a message to stick, you need to get it in first(and often), and you need to keep it very simple. Every damn time a Democrat mentions the word “Socialism” in response to the Republican message it reinforces the original simple message the Republicans have already implanted. If you need to talk about programs you support, do NOT do it as a response to what the Republicans say, do NOT use the same words that have already been successfully demonized, keep if simple, and repeat that same simple original message until it sticks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-democrats-should-talk-about-socialism/834950.md?page=8)