# How did an American pass himself off as a Duke in Britain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 4, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476 "2009-02-04T21:41:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/61 "2011-01-11T21:21:59Z")
> [@SirRay](#): > > Eh, I doubt it, with such odd grammer & capitalization in that post (and what’s with the ‘\>’). I would hope the real Duchess has a (educated) assistant who would handle this sort of situation. > (I also learned Dukes are addressed ‘your Grace’ from ‘Kind Hearts and Coronets’ :p) I suspect that the real duchess – who is a Californian – cannot afford an assistant. The dukes of Manchester have been lacking in wealth for several generations. ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/62 "2011-01-11T23:32:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I have no idea if there’s a true story behind the OP’s question, but I’ll assume there is. > > IF there really was an American impostor or scam artist in England posing as a British peer, COULD he pull it off successfully? Maybe. It depends how good his accent, his cover story and his social skills were, and upon the people he was trying to fool. That is, was the impostor hanging out with other rich aristocrats, was he posing as a peer among middle-class or working class folks who mightn’t know the names of all Britain’s true peers and might not notice mistakes or faux pas that would give a faker away. > > The same would be true of any scam. COULD a British con artist come to the USA, adopt an American accent, and fool me into believing he was a member of Congress? Maybe. I sure don’t know the names of everyone in the House of Representatives, and I wouldn’t recognize the faces of many whose names I DO recognize. If an English con artist mastered a Southern accent, put on a 3-piece suit, and introduced himself to me as “Congressman Jim Cooper of Tennessee,” I might well be fooled, at least for a little while. > > P.S. Tell the truth- do you even KNOW if there’s a real Congressman Jim Cooper from Tennessee? I know Jim Cooper aka Mr. No Lips but hey I’m from Tennessee. Some congressman or woman from California? No clue. ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/63 "2011-01-11T23:41:31Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I suspect that the real duchess – who is a Californian – cannot afford an assistant. The dukes of Manchester have been lacking in wealth for several generations. Egads! Now you have embarrassed her ladyship by highlighting her financial difficulties. I beseech you to conduct yourself in a gentlemanly manner. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/64 "2011-01-12T01:13:30Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I have no idea if there’s a true story behind the OP’s question, but I’ll assume there is. > > IF there really was an American impostor or scam artist in England posing as a British peer, COULD he pull it off successfully? Maybe. It depends how good his accent, his cover story and his social skills were, and upon the people he was trying to fool. That is, was the impostor hanging out with other rich aristocrats, was he posing as a peer among middle-class or working class folks who mightn’t know the names of all Britain’s true peers and might not notice mistakes or faux pas that would give a faker away. > > The same would be true of any scam. COULD a British con artist come to the USA, adopt an American accent, and fool me into believing he was a member of Congress? Maybe. I sure don’t know the names of everyone in the House of Representatives, and I wouldn’t recognize the faces of many whose names I DO recognize. If an English con artist mastered a Southern accent, put on a 3-piece suit, and introduced himself to me as “Congressman Jim Cooper of Tennessee,” I might well be fooled, at least for a little while. > > P.S. Tell the truth- do you even KNOW if there’s a real Congressman Jim Cooper from Tennessee? Hell, I know a Norwegian who speaks better American idiom and accent English than a lot of Americans I know. Spot on classic Midwestern CNN. I didn’t realize he was Norwegian for about 4 months, until he mentioned flying into Oslo and I asked if he was going on vacation, and he was returning home after vacation. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/65 "2011-01-12T12:14:29Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > OT: I think the SDMB is the only place I ever see the term Britisher used. I got asked was I a Britisher the last time I was in Ohio :mad: . ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/66 "2011-01-12T12:35:03Z")
So, did the Duke in question by any chance preside over the duchy of Nukem? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/67 "2011-01-12T13:32:48Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Sorry for the hijack, but his son has the most incredibly long and pretentious name I’ve ever heard: Alexander Michael Charles David Francis George Edward William Kimble Drogo **Montagu** , Viscount Mandeville [bolding and URL removal mine] Meh. What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/68 "2011-01-12T13:40:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Meh. What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. It might smell as sweet, but if it were called ‘Rotten Pusflower’ it probably would be a far less popular Valentine’s gift. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/69 "2011-01-12T15:46:32Z")
> [@NicePete](#): > > Is his favorite composer Johann Gambolputty de von Ausfern- schplenden- schlitter- crasscrenbon- fried- digger- dingle- dangle- dongle- dungle- burstein- von- knacker- thrasher- apple- banger- horowitz- ticolensic- grander- knotty- spelltinkle- grandlich- grumblemeyer- spelterwasser- kurstlich- himbleeisen- bahnwagen- gutenabend- bitte- ein- nürnburger- bratwustle- gerspurten- mitz- weimache- luber- hundsfut- gumberaber- shönedanker- kalbsfleisch- mittler- aucher von Hautkopft of Ulm? I’m sorry, who? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/70 "2011-01-12T15:56:06Z")
Britishers have funny names. Check. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/71 "2011-01-13T23:10:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So is the current [Baron of Haden-Guest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Guest). I was very surprised when I learned about this. According to the Wikipedia article he took his seat in the House of Lords, and immediately joined in with internal efforts trying to reform it to a more relevant, and democratically based, institution. But right around then (1999, I think) a reform law was passed that kicked all the hereditary lords out of the chamber. I would think that, as an American, one could easily pass oneself off as a Peer who had just come into the title of a deceased cousin. No one would really expect you to know all the ins and outs of English, Scottish, or Northern Irish culture; neither would you have to worry about successfully mimicking the behavior and manners of the British aristocracy. As an aside, I’ve always found it interesting that you can call a Duke simply “Duke”. Presumably if you’re on friendly terms, you could say, “Nice to see you again, Duke”. By contrast, you wouldn’t call Christopher Guest “Baron”, unless you were reciting his full title Baron Haden-Guest. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/72 "2011-01-13T23:28:02Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I suspect that the real duchess – who is a Californian – cannot afford an assistant. The dukes of Manchester have been lacking in wealth for several generations. They used to kick you out of the Peerage and strip you of your title for not being able to keep up the lifestyle, but I suppose that’s not the case nowadays. I can the reason in that; in the old days one assumes it was considered part of _noblesse oblige_ not lose everything down in Monte Carlo and then put the estate and village up the spout (to the pawnshop). ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/73 "2011-01-14T00:00:56Z")
> [@glee](#): > > 1. As others have said, you can have American title-holders. Indeed the wonderful American Jamie Lee Curtis was entitled to sit in the House of Lords for the Queen’s speech. In fact, the idea that a US Citizen can also be a British Peer is fairly old. It was part of the plot of Frances Hodgson Burnett’s novel “Little Lord Fauntleroy”. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/74 "2011-01-14T00:07:15Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > They used to kick you out of the Peerage and strip you of your title for not being able to keep up the lifestyle, but I suppose that’s not the case nowadays. I’ve heard of peers losing their title for committing treason, but not for having insufficient money to “keep up the lifestyle”. Can you give a specific example? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/75 "2011-01-14T00:26:06Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > As an aside, I’ve always found it interesting that you can call a Duke simply “Duke”. Presumably if you’re on friendly terms, you could say, “Nice to see you again, Duke”. By contrast, you wouldn’t call Christopher Guest “Baron”, unless you were reciting his full title Baron Haden-Guest. You can call a Duke anything you like, but it is not correct or usual to call him “Duke”. If you’re addressing, e.g., the Duke of Manchester, formally you call him “your grace”. Informally, depending on how well you know him and on his preference, you call him either “Alex”, which is the version of his Christian name that he commonly uses, or “Manchester”. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/76 "2011-01-15T19:55:53Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > You can call a Duke anything you like, but it is not correct or usual to call him “Duke”. If you’re addressing, e.g., the Duke of Manchester, formally you call him “your grace”. Informally, depending on how well you know him and on his preference, you call him either “Alex”, which is the version of his Christian name that he commonly uses, or “Manchester”. No, according to the [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_of_address_in_the_United_Kingdom#Peers_and_peeresses) article on forms of address, you can indeed call him Duke. I don’t know what the difference between “Your Grace” and “Duke” is, but I suspect that the former is what an obvious social “inferior” would call him, while “Duke” might be appropriate for acquaintances with whom he is on speaking terms, but not yet familiar enough for them to call him Manchester. You also can’t call this duke Lord Manchester, because dukes do not use _Lord_ as an honorific. Obvious social “inferiors” these days, from my limited knowledge, seems to include only servants on the estate, and possibly tradesmen and others in the village if there is one. I’m sure that Dukes today don’t go around being “Your Grace”-ed by every single person they encounter; I’d think it would get very tiresome. **Cunctator** , I am looking for a cite to back up my assertion, but haven’t found it so far. I’m sure I did see it somewhere, though. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/77 "2011-01-16T01:34:12Z")
The question of the proper form of address for a British duke is addressed in post 39 in this _Downton Abbey_ thread, as well: [Downton Abbey (open spoilers) - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=584830) ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/78 "2011-01-16T23:42:45Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > **Cunctator** , I am looking for a cite to back up my assertion, but haven’t found it so far. I’m sure I did see it somewhere, though. I’ll be surprised if you can find one. Once granted, a peerage descends according to a specific formula e.g. heirs male; heirs general; special rules allowing a more distant heir to inherit etc. I’ve never heard of an example where there has been a financial requirement attached to a peerage. The closest thing that I could suggest would be someone declining the offer of a peerage on the grounds that he did not have sufficient wealth to maintain the lifestyle that was expected of one in such a position. This was the case with the [3rd Marquess of Salisbury](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gascoyne-Cecil,_3rd_Marquess_of_Salisbury#Last_year:_1902.E2.80.931903), who twice rejected the offer of a dukedom. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/79 "2011-01-17T18:29:52Z")
In length, silliness and/or pretentiousness it doesn’t hold a candle to the others previously mentioned, but the iconic musician/producer [Brian Eno](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Eno)’s name is still noteworthy, esp. in full: Brian Peter George St. John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476/80 "2011-01-17T23:47:35Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > I’ll be surprised if you can find one. Once granted, a peerage descends according to a specific formula e.g. heirs male; heirs general; special rules allowing a more distant heir to inherit etc. I’ve never heard of an example where there has been a financial requirement attached to a peerage. Keep in mind, I’m talking about late medieval/early modern times, e.g. the time of the Tudors and Elizabeth I, not anything very recent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-an-american-pass-himself-off-as-a-duke-in-britain/484476.md?page=5)