# How did Anal Sex and the Greeks get Associated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 2, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503 "2012-03-02T00:23:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/21 "2012-03-05T00:53:32Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > What nationality wanted to do it “doggy style”? > > 🙂 > > Q Labrador Receiver ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/22 "2012-03-05T19:29:19Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I seem to remember someone pointing out that the actual common practice in Greek was not anal sex, though, but more between the thighs or similar. Yes, it’s called diamerizein. Between the thighs was the most common male-male sex act in Ancient Greece. Anal sex was not favored, though of course it did happen. > [@](#): > > And that, even amongst modern homosexual men, anal sex is not as common as people would lead you to believe. This is true, but not in favor of the thigh-sex preferred by the Greeks. I’ve never met anyone who claimed to be into that (queer male here), though I hear it’s popular in India or something. Anal sex is certainly more popular amongst modern homosexual men than it was in years past, even more recently. Not long ago I read an interview with an elderly gay man in which he recalls a time when anal sex was socially disfavored by the gay community, and men who preferred it were derided as “brownie queens”. ---
**Author:** ![Calimach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bcef8e/32.png) [@Calimach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calimach)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/23 "2013-07-10T11:46:40Z")
You are quite right, not only was it not favored, it was detested by civilized Greeks. Aesop had a fable mocking buggers as shameless, Aeschines called them “brutal and uncultured,” and Aristotle classified buggery as a neurosis akin to eating dirt. If you want “chapter and verse” citations you are welcome to read my article on the topic, just search for “How the moderns pinned anal sex on the Greeks” and my name. It specifically addresses _how_ this unfortunate association between Greek culture and this behavior came about. It is a very old association, going back to the days of the Greeks, and likely it is based on a combination of factors. First, not all Greeks behaved in a civilized manner with boys, some were abusive and violated their boyfriends. Secondly, Greek culture came under attack from a new religion out of Asia, called Christianity, and puritan arguments were one of the weapons used against the Greeks. Thirdly, the Greeks were one the first cultures to haver the courage to discuss this practice, so even though they almost unanimously denounced it still the association remained. I liked your comment about “brownie queens.” That is worth researching. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/24 "2013-07-10T12:59:37Z")
I blame Aeneas. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/25 "2013-07-10T13:05:45Z")
> [@](#): > > the thigh-sex preferred by the Greeks. I’ve never met anyone who claimed to be into that Dry humping is like this, and it’s fun enough that we’ve all done it. Oiling up some boy and using his thighs like a fleshlight is fairly ingenious. Almost like fucking a woman, without all the bleeding, bitching, and babies. ETA- Greeks had foreskins, too. So maybe they didn’t need the oil. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/26 "2013-07-10T14:56:49Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > _History Laid Bare: Love, Sex, and Perversity from the Ancient Etruscans to Warren G. Harding_ by Richard Zacks contains a chapter in which the author recounts looking through old court records from the 18th and 19th centuries. > > He found records of English women filing for divorce, on the grounds that their husbands wanted to do it “French style”. > > He found records of French women filing for divorce, on the grounds that their husbands wanted to do it “Italian style”. > > He found records of Italian women filing for divorce, on the grounds that their husbands wanted to do it “Greek style”. > > So, it seems that those decadent easterners always get accused of preferring the back door. > > I once subscribed to a listserv thread, in which a group of Greeks, and a group of Turks, spent page after page after page arguing about whose ancestors were the most enthusiastic pederasts. To my reading of OP, this is the closest reply. These thread posts, and Cecil’s piece, are discussing history (granting for the nonce that an obscurely cited self-cite is relevant). The OP is one of _historiography_, the study of how history is written; that is, the history of history, how historical “truths” are decided upon. All the posts are interesting. I’m interested in when and how and by whom such an association began generally. Perhaps more interesting is why. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/27 "2013-07-10T15:19:23Z")
“Bugger” is from “Bulgarian,” specifically the Bulgarian religious sect Bogomils. They weren’t massacred with the same blood lust as the Cathars, just buttsecks-slandered more thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/28 "2013-07-10T15:26:36Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Dry humping is like this, and it’s fun enough that we’ve all done it. > Oiling up some boy and using his thighs like a fleshlight is fairly ingenious. > Almost like fucking a woman, without all the bleeding, bitching, and babies. > > ETA- Greeks had foreskins, too. So maybe they didn’t need the oil. “Fleshlight” is good. I like that your post is _vers libre_. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/29 "2013-07-10T15:27:12Z")
But, do ancient zombie Greeks prefer men? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/30 "2013-07-10T15:57:38Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > But, do ancient zombie Greeks prefer men? It gives the power to turn undead a whole new meaning. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/31 "2013-07-10T16:06:15Z")
**How did Anal Sex and the Greeks get Associated?** When a daddy Greek and another daddy Greek love each other very much… ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/32 "2013-07-10T17:39:31Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > But, do ancient zombie Greeks prefer men? > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > It gives the power to turn undead a whole new meaning. Take it seriously. Ask and the Net giveth. Stupid paper (full at cite), worth it for epigraph-with-cite: **[Greek zombies](http://jan.sleutels.com/teksten/zombies.pdf)** (final draft) Jan Sleutels Faculty of Philosophy, Universiteit Leiden, PO Box 9515, 2300 RA Leiden, Netherlands, [jan@sleutels.com](mailto:jan@sleutels.com) ABSTRACT This paper explores the possibility that the human mind underwent substantial changes in recent history. Assuming that consciousness is a substantial trait of the mind, the paper focuses on the sug-gestion made by Julian Jaynes that the Mycenean Greeks had a “bicameral” mind instead of a conscious one. The suggestion is commonly dismissed as patently absurd, for instance by critics such as Ned Block. A closer examination of the intuitions involved, considered from different theoretical angles (social constructivism, idealism, eliminativism, realism), reveals that the idea of “Greek zombies” should be taken more seriously than is commonly assumed. [RIGHT][Epigraph of essay] It was so quiet that I heard An ancient Greek zombie. It was so quiet that I heard My brain think in class.[sup]1[/sup] [/RIGHT] 1. From: ‘If You Had Super Ears’, by John, pupil of Y3/4 at St. Bartholomew’s Catholic Primary School (Rainhill, Merseyside UK). Posted on the Internet as part of the school’s poetry project; see [http://www.st-bartholomews.st-helens.sch.uk](http://www.st-bartholomews.st-helens.sch.uk). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/33 "2013-07-10T17:53:40Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > … > Anal sex is certainly more popular amongst modern homosexual men than it was in years past, even more recently. Not long ago I read an interview with an elderly gay man in which he recalls a time when anal sex was socially disfavored by the gay community, and men who preferred it were derided as “brownie queens”. Who was it who said “Brownie, you’re doing a heckuva job!”? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/34 "2013-07-10T18:02:17Z")
FTR, I emailed the school of the author of the epigraph. NB: I refer to this thread as a “genial semi-scholarly discussion.” Yeah, that sounds right. Should be the standard line which GQ mods use when they tell people what they mod. **The spreading fame of lines of poetry by one of your students** You may find the following two citations interesting. The first is here, standing highlighted as the epigraph to a scholarly paper: [http://jan.sleutels.com/teksten/zombies.pdf](http://jan.sleutels.com/teksten/zombies.pdf) I found this paper [and] cited it in a genial semi-scholarly discussion. I cited it really only to draw attention to the lines written by that student: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16459807](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16459807) I am sure the boy’s creativity reflects well upon the quality of your school and the fine education and talent of all your pupils. Best wishes, [name redacted] ETA: What _do_ moderators tell people what they do? Eg, stranger runs into **Colibri** at a cocktail party: “Do anything on-line to keep you occupied?” ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/35 "2013-07-10T18:22:21Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > … > Anal sex is certainly more popular amongst modern homosexual men than it was in years past, even more recently. Not long ago I read an interview with an elderly gay man in which he recalls a time when anal sex was socially disfavored by the gay community, and men who preferred it were derided as “brownie queens”. Of course, now too opinions differ. See [these excerpts from a perceptive, funny, and witty essay by Stephen Fry](http://leopoldsfeathers.tumblr.com/post/27548392782/stephen-fry-on-homophobia-this-is-fucking-amazing) on homosexuality, sodomy, and homophobia. Unfortunately I do not have the original cite. However, Fry has mentioned this subject on other occasions. Excerpt from cite: My own view is that most homophobia, if one wants to use that rather crummy word, has almost nothing to do with sex. “But have you any idea what these people actually do?” Self-righteous members of the House of Commons loved standing to ask that question during out last parliamentary debate on the age of homosexual consent. “Shit-stickers, that’s what they are. Let’s be clear about that. We’re talking about sodomy here.” Oh no you aren’t. You think you are, but you aren’t, you know. Buggery is far less prevalent in the gay world than people suppose. Anal sex is probably not much more common in homosexual encounters than it is in heterosexual. Buggery is not at the end of the yellow brick road somewhere over the homosexual rainbow, it is not the prize, the purpose, the goal or the fulfillment of homosexuality. Buggery is not the achievement which sees homosexuality move from becoming into being; buggery is not homosexuality’s realisation or destiny. Buggery is as much necessary condition of homosexuality as the ownership of a Volvo estate car is a necessary condition of middle-class family life, linked irretrievably only in the minds of the witless and the cheap. The performance of buggery is no more inevitable a part of homosexuality than an orange syllabub is an inevitable part of a dinner: some may clamour for it an instantly demand a second helping, some are not interested, some decide they will try it once and then instantly vomit. FTR, to me the effective persuasiveness of his argument–and that he _has to_ make such an argument to the vast majority of people which has not thought it through his way–proves to me the exact opposite of his opening statement. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/36 "2013-07-11T04:32:15Z")
The Greek and the Italian were arguing about whose culture was richer. “Sex was invented in ancient Greece, you know” said the Greek. “Yes, that is true,” said the Italian. “But the Romans introduced the practice to women.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/37 "2013-07-11T05:20:32Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > I once subscribed to a listserv thread, in which a group of Greeks, and a group of Turks, spent page after page after page arguing about whose ancestors were the most enthusiastic pederasts. You don’t say who was arguing for what. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/38 "2013-07-11T09:36:07Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You don’t say who was arguing for what. It started out as a perfectly rational discussion of medieval history. Then a member of one group accused the other group of preferring little boys. It then became a very erudite argument, with each group citing various medieval sources to document how perverted the other group’s ancestors were. It was quite entertaining, for the first dozen pages. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503/39 "2013-07-11T16:14:39Z")
How do they separate the men from the boys in the Greek army? With a crowbar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-anal-sex-and-the-greeks-get-associated/614503.md?page=1)