# How did Canada become more culturally public transit than the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 13, 2024, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809 "2024-03-13T17:53:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/123 "2024-03-22T16:21:28Z")
I would also like the question poser to state their connection to Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/124 "2024-03-23T01:06:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > NYC certainly has fallen in homicide rates in the last while. Now it’s at #24 in cities in the US, with a rate of 5.0 homicides/100,000 population. (Rochester NY is at #4 with 36 homicides/100,000) Just dropping in to note that the quoted rate for Rochester was from 2022. [Homicides dropped by 32% in 2023 to a total of 58](https://counciloncj.org/year-end-2023-crime-trends/). That’s a rate of 27.6/100,000 population. That number is still terrible, but moving in the right direction and more recent. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/125 "2024-03-23T01:51:30Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I would also like the question poser to state their connection to Canada. Forget it, he’s rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/126 "2024-03-23T20:21:40Z")
The thread is getting bit off topic talking about violent crimes. Was it available farmland in Canada or public transit ridership that Canadian cities and suburbs grow much more dense than the US? We are talking 50s and 60s. Where in 1961 Canada had 18,238,247 people. I believe some thing like only 20% of the land is available for farming in Canada where if I’m not mistaken the US has way more available farmland than Canada. Did lot of cities have anti sprawl measures in place in the 50s and 60s because of available farmland in Canada is so little because of the Canadian Shield and tundra land making up 80% of the land in Canada? Some one said Canada had a massive shortage of housing in Canada and this was one of the reason they built so many high rise apartment. What a massive shortage of housing in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s? How did the US do it with out having massive housing shortage. The US had rust belt move and white flight move how did they do it with out a massive shortage of housing? Why in the US is it more expensive to build high rise apartments but not Canada? Was Canadian middle class weaker in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s unlike the US? Did not have the money to buy a house and to rent first. Did the US government make housing more available to people in the US than Canada. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/127 "2024-03-23T20:41:28Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > Canadian cities and suburbs grow much more dense than the US? Say what? Show your cites. Here are the top 10 cities in Canada, by population density (people per square kilometer, [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_population_centres_in_Canada)): 1. Toronto (3,088) 2. Milton (2,756) 3. Vancouver (2,661) 4. Montreal (2,658) 5. Stouffville (2,594) 6. Bradford (2,368) 7. Airdrie (2,228) 8. Kanata (2,199) 9. Regina (2,130) 10. Winnipeg (2,125) And, here is the corresponding list of the most densely-populated cities in the U.S. (again, population per square kilometer, [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population)): 1. New York (11,312) 2. Jersey City (7,681) 3. Paterson (7,342) 4. San Francisco (7,195) 5. Cambridge (7,100) 6. Boston (5,401) 7. Daly City (5,329) 8. Newark (4,991) 9. Miami (4,743) 10. Chicago (4,647) If the most densely-populated city in Canada (Toronto) were in the U.S., it would rank only at #31, just behind Los Angeles, which is famously seen as “sprawly.” ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/128 "2024-03-23T21:07:27Z")
And, just because I’m bored, and because you said “We are talking 50s and 60s,” here are the 10 most-populated cities in Canada from 1961, with their population densities at that time (people per square kilometer), and the same for the ten most-populated US cities from 1960. Canada: 1. Montreal: 5,779 2. Toronto: 2,891 3. Vancouver: 6,871 4. Winnipeg: 1,030 5. Ottawa: 154 6. Hamilton: 353 7. Quebec City: 791 8. Edmonton: 441 9. Calgary: 340 10. Windsor: 1,324 U.S.: 1. New York: 10,003 2. Chicago: 6,018 3. Los Angeles: 2,039 4. Philadelphia: 5,754 5. Detroit: 4,652 6. Baltimore: 4,472 7. Houston: 566 8. Cleveland: 4,358 9. Washington, DC: 4,692 10. St. Louis: 4,688 Of the ten biggest U.S. cities, eight (excluding the sprawly Los Angeles and Houston, which had lots of empty space to grow into in that era) had population densities of over 4,000 people per square kilometer in 1960; at that same time, of the ten biggest Canadian cities, only two (Montreal and Vancouver) were comparably as dense, and five of the ten had densities under 1,000 people per square kilometer. If you have actual cites to prove otherwise, please share them. ---
**Author:** ![TXRebel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@TXRebel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TXRebel)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2024, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/129 "2024-03-26T02:40:28Z")
I’m in! I like chocolate too! ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2024, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/130 "2024-05-16T05:18:39Z")
I just look at the building code in Ontario and it appears they are allowed now to use wood frame up to 6 stories I believe Ontario does allow wood frame apartments up to 6 stories now in Ontario by looking at building code. It unclear from my understanding if the building code allowed wood frame apartments in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. For some strange reason Victoria BC has lot of low rise apartments that you just don’t see other places in Canada and very much so Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2024, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/131 "2024-05-16T09:47:47Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > It unclear from my understanding if the building code allowed wood frame apartments in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. No, they didn’t. Mass lumber multi-story residential is relatively new here. > [@Jackson99](#): > > For some strange reason Victoria BC has lot of low rise apartments that you just don’t see other places in Canada and very much so Ontario. Demographics and climate are two reasons. You also realize that Toronto and Victoria are more than 3300km apart from each other? That’s almost as far as London to Cairo, Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/132 "2024-05-18T19:43:47Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > No, they didn’t. Mass lumber multi-story residential is relatively new here. Well than that probably why you don’t have low rise apartments if it has to be all concrete plus two exit fire stairs wells with concrete fire exit it just too costly for developers that it would maximize the cost if you going all concrete plus two concrete fire exit it be cheaper to just build high rise apartment at that point. The lumber lobby is probably much higher in the US to relax the fire safety code. I also read some where fire safety code get more complex higher than 7 stories in the US may be other reason for the so many 2 to 6 story apartments heights. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/133 "2024-05-18T20:05:18Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > I also read some where fire safety code get more complex higher than 7 stories in the US may be other reason for the so many 2 to 6 story apartments heights. Could you _please_ provide a cite? For, like, anything you state in this thread? “I read somewhere” is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/134 "2024-05-18T20:30:58Z")
Ontario is allowing up to 12 stories for mass timber now, and will be expanding to 18 stories with encapsulation. [https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1004272/ontario-expanding-mass-timber-construction-up-to-18-storeys](https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1004272/ontario-expanding-mass-timber-construction-up-to-18-storeys) This doesn’t address your earlier misconceptions that demographics, density, and climate aren’t wildly different across the 2nd largest country by land mass in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/135 "2024-05-18T20:40:41Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Could you _please_ provide a cite? For, like, anything you state in this thread? “I read somewhere” is meaningless. This was over a month ago I read it, I don’t remember if it was 6 stories or 7 stories but it was in reference to fire ladder truck and fire safety code getting more complex higher up. Hopefully some here more knowledgeable can command on this ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/136 "2024-05-18T20:47:07Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > This doesn’t address your earlier misconceptions that demographics, density, and climate aren’t wildly different across the 2nd largest country by land mass in the world. Not sure what you are trying to say here. We are talking about the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s when they where building apartments in both countries the contrast difference. I made reference to high rise apartments in towns and suburbs in Canada . ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/137 "2024-05-18T20:48:00Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Ontario is allowing up to 12 stories for mass timber now, and will be expanding to 18 stories with encapsulation. I’m pretty sure that mass timber construction is a fairly new thing with lower carbon emissions than steel or concrete construction, though conventional wood frame construction is older. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/138 "2024-05-18T21:03:30Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > Not sure what you are trying to say here. We are talking about the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s when they where building apartments in both countries the contrast difference. > > I made reference to high rise apartments in towns and suburbs in Canada . And, in response to you, weeks ago, in this thread, I showed you [the relative population densities of the biggest American cities in 1960, versus the biggest Canadian cities at that same point in time](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/128), and demonstrated that, no, most Canadian cities were, in fact, a _lot_ less densely populated, even back then, than their American counterparts. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/139 "2024-05-18T21:11:19Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > Not sure what you are trying to say here. We are talking about the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s when they where building apartments in both countries the contrast difference. I’m referring to your earlier comparison between Victoria - a small city of under 400K with a high retiree population on a forested island with a climate that has a January mean temperature of 5C - with Ontario which is significantly denser, higher populated, and a winter temperature that is 10-15 C colder. Other than being in the same political entity called Canada, they have little in common yet you expect them to be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/140 "2024-05-18T22:06:53Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > I’m referring to your earlier comparison between Victoria - a small city of under 400K with a high retiree population on a forested island with a climate that has a January mean temperature of 5C - with Ontario which is significantly denser, higher populated, and a winter temperature that is 10-15 C colder. > > Other than being in the same political entity called Canada, they have little in common yet you expect them to be the same. I don’t think city planners were concern about city sprawl in the 50s, 60s and probably 70s that said you have to build high rise. Also these high rise apartments are in very sprawl car centric suburbs nothing urban. None of these areas look urban at all like New York, Philly or Chicago. I said before unless city planning is different in Canada the US has zoning rules high density here, medium density here and low density here and you can see the different density levels in the city when you go on drive unlike it seems in Canada. A Low rise apartment in low density area, medium rise apartments in medium density area and high rise apartment in high density area. The only generation difference is rust belt cities look way more different than sun belt cities. Where the rust belt cities and New York, Philly or Chicago way more dense and walkable well the sun belt cities are more sprawl and lower density. And small communities and suburbs would just look way out place to plot high rise apartments in the US. You not understanding this not a Toronto thing you got lot in Hamilton, London, Kitchener, Ottawa, Pickering, Witby. And London, Kitchener, Ottawa no other cities close to it. I don’t think in the 50s, 60s and probably 70s they thought Hamilton or Pickering, Witby was going be part of the Greater Toronto area. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/141 "2024-05-18T22:14:44Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > I’m referring to your earlier comparison between Victoria - a small city of under 400K with a high retiree population on a forested island with a climate that has a January mean temperature of 5C - with Ontario which is significantly denser, higher populated, and a winter temperature that is 10-15 C colder. > > Other than being in the same political entity called Canada, they have little in common yet you expect them to be the same. Also I would like to had these high rise apartments are plot in low density areas nothing urban looking at all. Not sure about Victoria but in case of Vancouver they can’t really sprawl out because of the water, mountain and protected farm land. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809/142 "2024-05-18T22:21:58Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Other than being in the same political entity called Canada, If you really want to know as experience look at Calgary or Edmonton and may be Winnipeg. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-canada-become-more-culturally-public-transit-than-the-us/998809.md?page=8)