To be fair, many of believe Saskatchewan exists in the same way as Oz.
The only place that is walkable and urban is down town Toronto, old Toronto, Old East York, some parts of Scarborough and long Young street with mixed use buildings, narrow streets, short city blocks. All those places I listed have malls, parking lots, plazas, none of the streets are grided and the city blocks are far away and all mostly homes. The old cities of Etobicoke and North York was design for car and suburban living. The only place that comes close to urban is long young street in North York.
It just that Canadians suburbs are more dense than the US and more public transit ridership.
Most of those high rise apartments buildings where built in the 50s, 60s and 70s when the GTA was very small and city sprawl was not issue and land value cost was much cheaper than what it is today. The condo boom was much later in 2000s to now.
Nitpick: it is Yonge Street. Pronounced “young,” but spelled Yonge. I should know; I grew up a block away from it, in North Toronto.
ETA: “Old East York”? Seriously? Are you looking along O’Connor Drive or something? Have you forgotten the Beaches, Bloor Street West out near Christie Pits, and Little Italy along College Street?
Probably Canadian or British spelling for USA Young street as British spelling likes to add lot of letters to word the same with colors and favourite vs favorite. The British spelling likes to add letters.
No. Actually, it was named for Sir George Yonge.
Nitpick: Yonge Street, not “Young”. It has nothing to do with “British spelling” – it was the guy’s name – Sir George Yonge, specifically.
And your characterization of what a “suburb” is is just bizarrely wrong. I used to live in North York and know it well. It was a suburb of sorts in the post-war era and through the 50s, but has been full-bore big-city living for well over half a century. When I lived there, I could walk to the subway, or walk to shopping or attending live theater in the downtown core. It has been part of the CIty of Toronto for many years.
Thanks for the backup, @wolfpup. I wonder what the OP would make of “Baby Point Road,” or “Strachan Avenue,” pronounciation-wise?
Heck, let’s add Riverdale, along the Danforth, and east of Broadview. Very nice walkable neighbourhood, with Greektown as a bonus.
I guess you can take the guy out of Toronto, but you’ll never take Toronto out of the guy!
Proper urban areas have mixed use buildings, short city blocks, grid system or streets like London England not crescent and courts, cul-de-sac and streets that loop and turn, malls, plazas, parking lots, Walking from Finch to Sheppard should take only 5 minutes or less if it was short city block. The areas of North York and Etobicoke was design for car the only southern part of Etobicoke comes any where close to urban.
When you look at New York, Chicago, Baltimore or Philadelphia or London England, Paris well those areas look way more urban than North York or Etobicoke.
It just those areas well are dense and have high transit ridership.
I had no idea the street was named after some one. I thought it was just some random street name you would see in any other US city.
Makes me wonder why they name the street after some one.
So your definition of “Canada” is southern Ontario and Winnipeg.
I’m done.
The distance from Finch to Sheppard is 1 1/4 miles (one and one-quarter miles). That’s not a five-minute walk, no matter how short the blocks are.
Toronto was laid out on a concession grid, where major arteries are 1 1/4 miles apart. If you know your concessions, you know roughly how far you are from anywhere else. From the south, for example, concessions are Queen, Bloor, St. Clair, Eglinton, Lawrence, York Mills, Sheppard, Finch, Steeles.
Going from Yonge eastbound, concessions are Bayview, Leslie, Victoria Park, Warden, Kennedy, McCowan, Markham, Morningside. I could name them west of Yonge too, but you get the idea. Anyway, the same concession road idea expands to Ontario’s rural townships: concession roads, line roads, and side roads. At any rate, no concession road is a five-minute walk from another concession road, no matter how short city blocks are—more like 20 to 25 minutes, really.
Maybe we can get away from how Toronto was laid out, and get back to the discussion of public transit. I think it depends on availability. Like I said, I grew up in Toronto, maybe a two-minute walk from a subway station, and I was riding the subway by myself when I was 11 years old. That didn’t happen to my friends here in western Canada, who had no subways, and lousy bus service, and who would get a car as soon as they could. I didn’t need a car, as long as I had reliable bus/subway/streetcar service.
No, I hope that you’re not. I’d appreciate your views on public transit in areas other than southern Ontario.
One of the things that surprised me when I moved to western Canada was that transit systems tried to serve as many people as possible. The way they did this was to create snaking bus routes, with the goal of making sure that as many people as possible were within a ten-minute walk of a bus stop. Sounds good in theory, but in practice, it lost something: a twenty-minute car ride would take an hour on the bus, because the bus had to snake through so many residential neighbourhoods. As I can attest from living in Edmonton for a few years. Heck, I once waited a half-hour in an Edmonton LRT station for a train—that’s not a way to win converts to a transit system. And my eventual ride was only about seven minutes—I should have hailed a cab instead, the distance being too far to walk.
Toronto basically said, for example, “The Sheppard East 85 bus goes along Sheppard Avenue East, and does not deviate from that route.” In other words, no snaking through residential neighbourhoods. And guess what? People were still a ten-minute walk from a transit line.
What has been your experience in western Canada? Which approach is better, in your opinion? I’m curious, as I’ve had this discussion with transit planners here in Lethbridge, and they cannot fathom buses that run on one road, and one road only, never deviating into residential neighbourhoods.
That is what I mean it is not a short city block and not good street layout for proper walkable city.
There is not any thing really in that block it mostly houses and no need to go in the block. The only streets with short city blocks is old Toronto.
I lived and worked in North York for nearly a quarter century, so I don’t need you to tell me that it’s just a suburb based on some totally bizarre idea of what a “suburb” is. North York is the second biggest business and economic hub in the amalgamated City of Toronto, second only to downtown Toronto itself. It’s home to major corporate headquarters like Nestlé, Warner Bros Entertainment, Procter & Gamble, Colgate-Palmolive, Sony, Dell, and many many others. It has big-city amenities everywhere. I’m done having this conversation with you.
There are many exceptions to that though. I grew up at York Mills and Bayview, which for those not familiar is the next main street south of Sheppard.
The city deviates from a grid plan here as York Mills is physically separated from Sheppard by both a large ravine and the busiest highway in North America, the 401. The only through roads N/S are the previously mentioned Bayview and Leslie which are 2 kms apart, which leaves a pocket with poor transit connections. The TTC addressed this with smaller neighbourhood services like the Silver Hills bus which serviced the northeastern portion of the area and connected up to York Mills subway station.
Fun fact, I was hit on my bike by the Silver Hills bus when I was in grade 6. I was unhurt, but the TTC bought me a nice new red Peugeot 10 speed to replace my trashed hand me down bike from my older brother.
Here in Ottawa, we had a bus-only transit system until the recent (2019? I think) opening of our LRT (There was one other train that ran for many years before that, but it was mostly a proof-of-concept for them to learn how to run a train, and didn’t go many places, so it doesn’t really count).
We had a mixed bag of routes. We had a couple that ran as straight as it was possible across the whole city (for example, the old Number 2 that ran the length of Montreal road to Rideau Street and then, after a jog through downtown, out Wellington St, I’m not sure how far). We also had a lot of rush-hour express busses designed to make quick trips from and to the suburbs. Most picked up a full load of people from one limited neighborhood, and then made a straight shot to downtown, either along the Queensway, our major east-west highway, or later along the bus transitway that was built in the 80s, that also ran east-west, with another north-south branch. Those express busses accounted for most of the revenue.
Other buses were suburban local routes, that usually make some kind of a loop. They’d typically run one route one way around the loop, and then the other way around. Usually on a half-hour schedule. These busses would run most of the day and evening, and ran mostly empty most of the day, so tended to lose money.
After they built the transit way, we also had a lot of busses that ran various parts of that transit way, serving every stop, they were the 90 series busses. The 95 was the one I used a lot, since it ran from the east end where I lived to downtown, but there were equivalents for all the major suburbs served by the transit way.
What I’m saying when I think of some thing urban like this in Toronto.
With short city blocks, lots of streets, with shops and fast food places on the different streets, mixed use buildings and activity on many of those streets like foot traffic.
Not a super block that is 1.4 with 25 minutes walking to the next block, with little to no shops and fast food places in the block, hardy any foot traffic in the block, major super blocks very far apart of 1.4, malls, plazas and parking lots. Having subways and very good public transit does not make the area look urban.
Not like this in North York
Not like this in North York
Anyways getting bit back on topic.
I think the main reason Canada did not built apartments like that is well you can’t have good public transit with low rise apartments. In the US the poor are more likely to own car and drive.
Canada wanted good public transit so they opt for high rise apartments to maximize the density in the area.
Well you have a funny idea what is urban because it does not look like New York, Chicago, Baltimore or Philadelphia or London England, Paris or any Asian cities.
If you think parking lots, malls, plazas, super block that are 1.4 away, mostly houses, non mixed use, little to no food traffic in the block the blocks that has mostly homes you have very odd sense what is urban and never left Canada and gone to New York, Chicago, Baltimore or Philadelphia or London England, Paris or Asian cities.
Well having subway and really good public transit does not make it urban. I have seen street car suburb areas looking more urban and better street layout than North York or Etobicoke.