# How did certain colleges become (American) football powerhouses? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 4, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125 "2006-11-04T22:00:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/21 "2006-11-06T03:43:30Z")
I’m a little concerned by the paucity of Michigan mentions in this thread. Go Blue! ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/22 "2006-11-06T03:57:45Z")
Pfft. Michigan. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/23 "2006-11-06T04:05:30Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Yes. The most recent notable one is Maurice Clarett. He was a key component on the Ohio State national championship team, but was booted off the team next year for taking money. Since college players are (supposed to be) amatures they are prohibited from taking money for their play. [/QUOTE] Clarett pretty much made his own bed. After getting the boot, he then sued the NFL over their eligibility requirements and lost, at which point he was no longer NCAA eligible. I’m not sure what Mike Shanahan was thinking drafting him, but the Broncos released him before the 2005 season anyway. Then, of course, he got arrested several times, had that bizarre incident with a hatchet, four guns, and a bottle of vodka in the car while wearing kevlar, has allegations that he has connections with the Israeli mob, and finally wound up in jail. I’m not sure any other college athletes have managed to get themselves in that much trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/24 "2006-11-06T04:08:07Z")
Didn’t he have 2 hatchets, or knives? Who says I need _two_ hatchets??? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/25 "2006-11-06T04:13:17Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] In all the po$t$ o far, no one ha mentioned the actual rea$on that $ome chool dominate the $port year after year, and $ome chool never how up on anyone be$t in collegiate port. Funny how that tiny detail kipped everyone' thought. Tri$ [/QUOTE] Gee, what part of football is big bu$ine$$ did you think didn’t refer to money? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/26 "2006-11-06T04:13:24Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] In all the po$t$ o far, no one ha mentioned the actual rea$on that $ome chool dominate the $port year after year, and $ome chool never how up on anyone be$t in collegiate port. Funny how that tiny detail kipped everyone' thought. Tri$ [/QUOTE] Because most division I football teams make a metric ass-load of money. There is little, if any, difference between the facilities at a place like Ohio State and a place like Minnesota. ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/27 "2006-11-06T04:27:46Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Pfft. Michigan. :dubious: [/QUOTE] After Michigan wins the national championship, they’ll take the NCAA basketball title as well. I think. Umm… we kick ass at football! ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/28 "2006-11-06T04:50:53Z")
[QUOTE=audiobottle] After Michigan wins the national championship, they’ll take the NCAA basketball title as well. I think. Umm… we kick ass at football! [/QUOTE] I don’t think so buddy. We are going to smack you around in the Horseshoe, then Oden is going to lead us to the basketball title. ---
**Author:** ![633squadron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/ee59a6/32.png) [@633squadron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/633squadron)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/29 "2006-11-06T06:25:18Z")
[QUOTE=glee] I’m posting from the UK where we only get some American Football. Hopefully you won’t mind answering these questions: etc. [/QUOTE] Over 90% of National Football League players come directly from college football programs. The other 10% is made up of people with other situations: [ul] [li]Guys who played college football but didn’t go directly into the NFL.[/li][li]On rare occasions, guys who didn’t play college ball for some reason but went on to play semi-pro and then went into the NFL.[/li][li]Non-Americans who came into the NFL with some special talent. This category is overwhelmingly place kickers, though I do remember one or two punters also coming in. Nearly all the kickers who came in played assoc football, but a few played rugby league or union. It strikes me that a punter came into the league from Australian Rules.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/30 "2006-11-06T06:43:32Z")
What a great thread this is… lots of good info (I see that **Exapno Mapcase** is a student of the history of higher education as well). The only thing I’d add is that tradition, reputation, and how that school’s players fare in the NFL greatly affect a team’s fortunes. Legendary coaches like Pop Warner, John Heisman, and Walter Camp came along at a time and revolutionized the game. Those early teams - the Harvards, Armys, and the like - had a huge advantage over the lesser schools. College football was also fairly unregulated in the early days, and there was/is widespread cheating. Perhaps the most egregious example was Southern Methodist University, who allowed boosters (alumni and fans of the school) to pay players over $60,000. They were slapped with the “death penalty” and banned from playing the 1987 season, had no home games in 1988, and lost a ton of scholarships. SMU was a powerhouse - Eric Dickerson and Craig James were household names - but it has never recovered from such a cataclysmic punishment. The NCAA regulates the number of scholarships a school can give to student athletes, which is supposed to level the field somewhat. Schools that have a good record of placing players in the NFL (Miami, Florida State, Notre Dame, USC, Michigan) will attract blue-chip players. Schools that play in prominent conferences (Big 10, SEC, Big XII, ACC) and play on TV will also attract recruits. We’ve already discussed the significance of facilities, a fancy stadium, and generally being treated like cock-of-the-walk in the town in which you play. The importance of being the big school in a football-rich state has been noted (Florida, Texas, Michigan, California; most of the southern states) but schools like Miami and Oklahoma in the 1980s and 1990s took on the outlaw role, recruiting fine athletes and brewing an aggressive attitude. Oklahoma tanked after Barry Switzer left (and also was penalized for his shenanigans) but is resurging under Stoops. Miami seems to be tanking now. With the media, NCAA, and other schools scrutinizing each other’s movements, it’s pretty much guaranteed that schools that (egregiously) cheat or are labeled with the dreaded lack of institutional control tag will be penalized by losing scholarships and/or being banned from postseason play. Often those schools will institute a punishment themselves to avoid the wrath of the NCAA - nobody wants to go through what SMU did (though it’s unlikely the NCAA would ever institute the death penalty after the SMU disaster). Kids won’t go to schools where they won’t be on TV or get to play in a bowl ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/31 "2006-11-06T09:42:25Z")
[QUOTE=treis] The Heisman trophy is the award for the best college player. I’d say it’s probably 60% that do. NFL players are bigger and faster, so what works on the college level might not work on the pro level. The best example is someone like Eric Crouch. He was a running quarterback in college that didn’t have the arm strength or accuracy to be a NFL quarterback. He was drafted in the third round of the draft, but as a safety, not a quarterback. I would say 100% Yes. The most recent notable one is Maurice Clarett. He was a key component on the Ohio State national championship team, but was booted off the team next year for taking money. Since college players are (supposed to be) amatures they are prohibited from taking money for their play. There are three lists put out. One is the AP sports writers poll, the other is the USA Today Coach’s poll, and the last is the BCS (Bowl Championship Series). The BCS is a computer ranking based on strength of schedule, and many other factors. You can see the rankings here: > **[2026 College Football Rankings - ESPN](https://www.espn.com/college-football/rankings)** > > Find the 2026 NCAAF rankings on ESPN, including the Coaches and AP poll for the top 25 NCAAF teams. The top two ranked teams in the BCS play each other. I am not sure, but I believe the USA Today is required to crown the winner of the BCS championship game champion, but the AP poll is not. If those two pick different teams, there is a split national championship. This happened in 2003 where Louisana State Universty (LSU) won the BCS, and the University of Southern California (USC) won the AP championship. Before the BCS teams played other conferences in bowl games at the end of the year. For example, the winner of the Big 10 (midwestern school) would play the winner of the Pac-10 (pacific coast schools). This often meant that the two best teams never played each other, would end up with the same record, and there would be a split national championship. This happened in 1997, 1991, and 1990. Yes, and there is also a sort of mythology and lore associated with Notre Dame. [/QUOTE] This is a true SDMB reply - thank you! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/32 "2006-11-06T09:51:56Z")
[QUOTE=633squadron] Over 90% of National Football League players come directly from college football programs. The other 10% is made up of people with other situations: [ul] [li]Guys who played college football but didn’t go directly into the NFL.[/li][li]On rare occasions, guys who didn’t play college ball for some reason but went on to play semi-pro and then went into the NFL.[/li][li]Non-Americans who came into the NFL with some special talent. This category is overwhelmingly place kickers, though I do remember one or two punters also coming in. Nearly all the kickers who came in played assoc football, but a few played rugby league or union. It strikes me that a punter came into the league from Australian Rules.[/li][/ul] [/QUOTE] Ta. I’m surprised more Rugby Union players don’t go into American Football, since I gather the money is pretty good. What would a top kicker earn in America? (I think a top English rugby player might get £250,000 a year = $475,000 / year) A Rugby stand-off (roughly equivalent to quarter-back) should be able to: - pass (but only backwards) - run + dodge - kick (both between the posts and from hand) - tackle (but not as much as his teammates) Would a kicker who could do other things not be a useful weapon in American Football? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/33 "2006-11-06T13:22:08Z")
Kickers are so highly specialized that the only time anything other than their kicking ability would be useful would be in trick plays or botched snaps. In fake field goals it’s generally the holder that will pick up and throw (generally a trick field goal winds up being a passing play) or run the ball, but I suppose there could be a direct snap or a lateral to the kicker. Fake punts are often direct snaps to a runner or a passing play from the punter. But it’s so rare that any of these plays will be called in a game that I’m sure teams would look for a strong, accurate leg over any sort of passing ability. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/34 "2006-11-06T13:56:56Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] There were a lot of scandals along the way. The Marx Brothers movie Horsefeathers has a plotline about enrolling older professional ringers as college football players. . [/QUOTE] The Three Stooges also did a short which went the other way. They were mistaken for “The Three Horsemen”–local college stars, and brought in to play a professional game. “Don’t worry, the promoter said. No one will hear you play, and no one will see you play.” So the sign outside the large stadium said: Football Today. Positively No Admittance!" For an interesting look at football just before the introduction of the forward pass, try to find a copy of “Football For Player And Spectator” (1905) by Fielding Yost, the great Michigan coach from the eary 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/35 "2006-11-06T14:39:58Z")
[QUOTE=glee] What would a top kicker earn in America? (I think a top English rugby player might get £250,000 a year = $475,000 / year) [/quote] A top kicker can earn about $1M/yr. Adam Vinatieri, a very well regarded place kicker, got a 5 year contract with a $3.5M signing bonus, plus annual salary. I don’t know if he’s the highest paid, but I’m sure he’s up there. > [@](#): > > Would a kicker who could do other things not be a useful weapon in American Football? Even though it’s counter intuitive, kicking is so highly specialized that they even have different players for different kinds of kicks. Most teams will have one punter (kicks from the hand) and one place kicker (kicks from the ground). Some teams even split the place kicking duties between a long kicker, for kickoffs where distance is more important than accuracy, and a field goal kicker, where accuracy is most needed. Believe me, if they could find one guy who was top notch in both types of kicks, they’d happily give that extra roster spot to a non-kicker. The one additional skill that kickers can use is tackling. Most of them are laughably inept, and risk injury when trying to tackle a breakaway return, or commit a penalty because they don’t have proper form. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/36 "2006-11-06T15:36:00Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Didn’t he have 2 hatchets, or knives? Who says I need _two_ hatchets??? [/QUOTE] What if one broke.? What has not been mentioned is that on the surface college football is supposed to be amateur. However some schools pay atheletes under the table to get them to play for their school. There is a governing body that oversees this and administers penalties. It is very busy. Most big programs cheat. If you pay enough ,you can turn a program around quickly. Basketball,because it has a smaller roster is easier to do. Football you pay the stars. Give them jobs and cars . Jobs that they get paid but dont have to work. There are tons of stories . We try to pretend its not as big as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/37 "2006-11-06T15:45:28Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Lance Murdoch] Also let’s not overlook academic fraud, lowering of Universities’ academic standards, recruitment of academically dubious players, strip club visits, prostitutes, overzealous boosters, fake jobs and under the table payments to players as tools used by universities to attract top talent. [/QUOTE] I can’t say much to most of this, but I can tell you, as part of the teaching staff at Penn State, we don’t go easy on the football players. In fact, not only do we have to fill out evaluations of how they’re doing at intervals throughout the semester, the football players I’ve had in my classes tended to be pretty motivated to do well in class. Certainly Paterno has a reputation of being strong on academics, both in holding his players to academic standards and in donating money and support. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/38 "2006-11-06T16:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] (though it’s unlikely the NCAA would ever institute the death penalty after the SMU disaster). [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I understood this parenthesis. Are you saying that the “death penalty” was _]too_ effective? It would seem to me that burying S.M.U. would have given other potential violators a reason to think twice. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/39 "2006-11-06T19:55:46Z")
[QUOTE=glee] presumably there isn’t a National College League, but is there a National College KO event? [/QUOTE] The NCAA (National Collegiate Athletic Association) is the governing body for college sports. It IS the league, and, as has been mentioned, it is divided into Divisions, which are then sub-divided into conferences, though some teams do remaining un-affiliated with a conference or “independent.” Several years back, the BCS (Bowl Championship Series) was adopted to determine the National Champion (or at least make that determination easier). The BCS uses a formula to give teams a rank. The Nos. 1 and 2 BCS ranked teams play in the Bowl Championship at the end of the year (the bowl championship game rotates between to Sugar, Rose, Fiesta and Orange Bowls from year to year – these are traditional “big” bowls). [QUOTE=glee] the ‘West Wing’ mentions Notre Dame football team several times. Is this because Notre Dame is excellent both academically and football-wise? [/QUOTE] Notre Dame hasn’t been year-in-year-out dominant for over a decade. The cynic in me thinks the West Wing plug is just that, a bit of advertising. NBC (the network that broadcasts The West Wing) has an exclusivity agreement with Notre Dame for broadcast rights to Notre Dame’s regular season games. Cross-promotion – GENIUS! ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125/40 "2006-11-06T19:57:14Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I’m not sure I understood this parenthesis. Are you saying that the “death penalty” was _]too_ effective? It would seem to me that burying S.M.U. would have given other potential violators a reason to think twice. [/QUOTE] that wouldn’t explain the dozens of violations since then [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-certain-colleges-become-american-football-powerhouses/379125.md?page=3)