# How Did Christianity End Up With No Notions Of Ritual Impurity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687 "2010-10-10T16:37:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/21 "2010-10-11T06:15:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@even\_sven](#): > > > > It seems to me like baptism is the ultimate story of ritual impurity in Christianity. > > What do you mean by this? Arguably it is symbolic washing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/22 "2010-10-11T06:24:28Z")
It is symbolic washing, but it’s Jewish in origin, not Christian. Jews were doing mikvahs long before Jesus came along. Christian baptism is actually one of the few retentions of Jewish purity rituals. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/23 "2010-10-11T07:58:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It is symbolic washing, but it’s Jewish in origin, not Christian. Jews were doing mikvahs long before Jesus came along. Christian baptism is actually one of the few retentions of Jewish purity rituals. Yeeesss . . . but not quite I think. Baptism as a prerequisite to (ultimate, spiritual, non-limbo\*\*\* inclusion) in the after life? Yes. Baptism as a prerequisite to not being “unclean?” I don’t think so, not in the mikvah sense. I don’t get the sense (ridiculous orthodox) Christians would be horrified at the prospect of an unbaptized heathen wandering into their church or shaking hands with them, they’d just say, hey, good luck in limbo/Hell, might wanna take care of that before you die. I do get the sense (making this up, the conversation per se hasn’t happened) my (ridiculous orthodox) Lubavitch work acquaintances would freak some serious out if some chick shook hands with them after . . . you know . . . without having . . . you know. \*\*\* limbo is as most of us know in limbo in the RCC. Fine. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/24 "2010-10-11T10:51:12Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > I think one of the big reasons for the marked decrease, if not the elimination, of these notions was the decision by some in the early Christian movement to try to sell their new faith to the Gentiles. The new religion wasn’t going to fly with Jewish dietary laws in lands where people were used to eating tasty, tasty pig-products. After that, once you start rolling back the proscriptions, it becomes easier and easier to cut out one more, then one more, then one more, then… They didn’t get cut out one by one, the choice was “all or nothing”. Paul headed the “nothing” field, Peter the “all” field, but Peter had a change of heart (the dream about the feast, where he is told to eat everything that’s being presented to him), so the “don’t try to push old-law requirements on our new men” side won. The biggest problem they were having was with circumcision (I don’t have a Bible here, sorry, but it appears shortly before Peter’s dream IIRC). A baby can complain when his foreskin gets cut off, but the parents can stick their fingers in their ears and go “la la la”; a grown-up who is told that he needs to have his foreskin cut off in order to achieve salvation is highly likely to take the door and never come back. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/25 "2010-10-11T11:06:09Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I’m putting this in GD because someone’s bound to take it down a road I didn’t really intend. > > Being “unclean” is a big deal in Judaism and Islam (and, I think, other religions, AFAICT). Certain animals, objects, actions, diseases, people are symbolically but in a very important sense impure and contaminate you or de-sanctify you. > > The early early Christians seem not to have totally avoided this debate, but it seems that Paul’s view prevailed pretty early on \*\*(IIRC Paul told the converted Jews to just get over whether it was sinful to eat meat offered by others to idols). \*\* Certainly by a few centuries in (unless I’m wrong), Christians had stopped thinking that there were things or people that could “infect” you spiritually by physical contact. (On a more metaphysical level certainly Christians of various eras have had notions of spiritual uncleaness or impurity). But in general, when Christians abstain from, say, eating meat or touching women, it’s because those are viewed as very awesome things that, however, can be a spiritual detriment from over-indulgence in, but definitely not a spiritual detriment from defilement by touching at all. > > What other religions do/don’t have literal doctrines of impure or taboo things/foods/people, that make you cursed or spiritually-diminished by mere contact with, in all circumstances, and why? eerrr…Christians around here will not eat food that has been prayed over…so I am not sure about the part that I have highlighted. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/26 "2010-10-11T13:14:12Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > It is symbolic washing, but it’s Jewish in origin, not Christian. Jews were doing mikvahs long before Jesus came along. Christian baptism is actually one of the few retentions of Jewish purity rituals. > > Yeeesss . . . but not quite I think. > > Baptism as a prerequisite to (ultimate, spiritual, non-limbo\*\*\* inclusion) in the after life? Yes. > > Baptism as a prerequisite to not being “unclean?” I don’t think so, not in the mikvah sense. That’s correct, the function changed with Christianity, but they still got the ritual from Judaism, just like they got the eucharist from pagan traditions, but adapted it to their own theology. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/27 "2010-10-11T13:34:10Z")
The only rite of ritual impurity I can think of is the requirement that one fast for a period of time before receiving the Eucharist, that the RCC still holds, and Seventh Day Adventists and their dietary beliefs. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/28 "2010-10-11T15:31:05Z")
I think the whole idea of ritual impurity came about due to confusion as to the exact cause of disease. People noticed that touching or eating certain things made you sick, but disease is such a powerful and mysterious force that people, unaware of the germ theory, continued to believe that it was punishment inflicted by God for touching or eating the forbidden. The question is, now that we all know better due to modern medical science, do most Jews, Muslims, etc. _really_ believe that God cares about whether you violate any one of these purity rules? Or do they (those who do) continue to obey them in order to maintain their identity as members of that particular cultural group? In other words, do some Jews believe, “Sure, you can start eating pork–or cheeseburgers–and G-d won’t punish you, but if you do you won’t exactly be Jewish anymore.”? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/29 "2010-10-11T15:48:51Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > eerrr…Christians around here will not eat food that has been prayed over… What does that mean? Prayed over by whom? ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/30 "2010-10-11T16:04:40Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > “[Churching](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churching_of_women)” new mothers used to be common in the RCC in Ireland at least. The Book of Common Prayer included it until fairly recently - my mom’s copy of the 1928 version includes it, and IIRC it wasn’t taken out until the 1980’s version. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/31 "2010-10-11T17:45:19Z")
> [@Katriona](#): > > > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > > > “[Churching](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churching_of_women)” new mothers used to be common in the RCC in Ireland at least. > > The Book of Common Prayer included it until fairly recently - my mom’s copy of the 1928 version includes it, and IIRC it wasn’t taken out until the 1980’s version. My grandmother was churched in the '40s/'50s. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/32 "2010-10-11T18:02:14Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > > [@bengangmo](#): > > > > eerrr…Christians around here will not eat food that has been prayed over… > > What does that mean? Prayed over by whom? There are some Chinese customs which involve the dedication food to the various Taoist/Buddhist gods and goddess. I can’t remember if people do eat them, but I have heard about this when younger. Sometimes at the back of the various food centres in Singapore, you can find altars dedicated to some of those idols (On the first floor of a public flat near my home there’s an altar to Guan Yu in plain sight), and more conservative Christians I knew when young will urge us not to eat at those places. Of course, this falls into ‘food dedicated to idols’ category. I don’t know of anyone pulling a big fuss about this now, but there are of course many sects of Christianity in Singapore too. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/33 "2010-10-11T19:00:25Z")
Huh. How weird. Couldn’t you just, you know, say Grace before you eat it? “Denied! I dedicated it to MY God, not yours, ha!” ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/34 "2010-10-11T22:54:42Z")
It is what in your heart that makes you pure or not, it is not some tenants set down by the ruling clergy class. JC was a shit stirrer. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/35 "2010-10-11T23:10:39Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > It is what in your heart that makes you pure or not, it is not some tenants set down by the ruling clergy class. JC was a shit stirrer. I guess you mean tenets. Do you class JC as believing the former or the latter of the two positions you note? I honestly can’t tell . . . . ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/36 "2010-10-11T23:13:16Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > > [@sisu](#): > > > > It is what in your heart that makes you pure or not, it is not some tenants set down by the ruling clergy class. JC was a shit stirrer. > > I guess you mean tenets. > > Do you class JC as believing the former or the latter of the two positions you note? I honestly can’t tell . . . . Sorry mate, yep spell check is not working! JC said the former. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/37 "2010-10-11T23:19:18Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > > [@Huerta88](#): > > > > I guess you mean tenets. > > > > Do you class JC as believing the former or the latter of the two positions you note? I honestly can’t tell . . . . > > Sorry mate, yep spell check is not working! > > JC said the former. Got it, and that’s the Pauline view that seems to have prevailed early on . . . though ISTR being told that just out of a Caesar’s wife type respect, JC was compliant with dietary laws, etc. Anyone have a reliable recollection/cite for laws JC can be shown to have kept, and those he arguably broke (healing on the Sabbath was one I recall, but I’d imagine there’s some potential Talmudic out for that)? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/38 "2010-10-12T00:17:14Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > > [@Huerta88](#): > > > > I guess you mean tenets. > > > > Do you class JC as believing the former or the latter of the two positions you note? I honestly can’t tell . . . . > > Sorry mate, yep spell check is not working! > > JC said the former. It would appear the spell check is working just fine… ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/39 "2010-10-12T01:20:19Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > I think the whole idea of ritual impurity came about due to confusion as to the exact cause of disease. People noticed that touching or eating certain things made you sick, but disease is such a powerful and mysterious force that people, unaware of the germ theory, continued to believe that it was punishment inflicted by God for touching or eating the forbidden. > > The question is, now that we all know better due to modern medical science, do most Jews, Muslims, etc. _really_ believe that God cares about whether you violate any one of these purity rules? Or do they (those who do) continue to obey them in order to maintain their identity as members of that particular cultural group? > > In other words, do some Jews believe, “Sure, you can start eating pork–or cheeseburgers–and G-d won’t punish you, but if you do you won’t exactly be Jewish anymore.”? This is exactly my view, I always considered that dietary laws came about for one of three reasons (two of which are quite blasphemous, but forgive me) 1. The prophet (whichever one you wish to nominate) noticed a link between disease and a particular food, so to “save” people from disease he just said that god told him this food cannot eat (yeah, its an oversimplification, so shoot me) 2. The prophet had a business interest in a chicken farm 😃 3. The leader simply didn’t like pork Do feel free to substitute prophet here for whoever was spreading the word, recording it or otherwise disseminating it. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687/40 "2010-10-12T01:23:29Z")
> [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](#): > > > [@toadspittle](#): > > > > What does that mean? Prayed over by whom? > > There are some Chinese customs which involve the dedication food to the various Taoist/Buddhist gods and goddess. I can’t remember if people do eat them, but I have heard about this when younger. Sometimes at the back of the various food centres in Singapore, you can find altars dedicated to some of those idols (On the first floor of a public flat near my home there’s an altar to Guan Yu in plain sight), and more conservative Christians I knew when young will urge us not to eat at those places. > > Of course, this falls into ‘food dedicated to idols’ category. I don’t know of anyone pulling a big fuss about this now, but there are of course many sects of Christianity in Singapore too. This is exactly correct - during certain events and festivals a lavish feast will be “offered” to the relevant Taoist / Buddhist gods - or to the family ancestors. Prayers will be said over the food, it is after all an “offering”. However both religions are quite pragmatic and consider it ok to eat the food afterwards (I have seen whole suckling pigs offered before, and it would be a crying shame to see that go to waste). Christians however tend to view it as a violation of “you shall have no other god but god” and that idolatry thingy…so they don’t like to take. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-christianity-end-up-with-no-notions-of-ritual-impurity/556687.md?page=3)