# How did conservatives create such a powerful grassroots movement recently **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207 "2010-08-14T02:32:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/181 "2010-08-18T04:02:52Z")
Indeed, the right is usually much better organized. Short sighted, reactionary and wrong. But very well organized. Gotta give em that. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/182 "2010-08-18T04:10:50Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > [@Superhal](#): > > > > Heh saying that the tea baggers are Libertarians is just smoke. The birth of the movement is credited to Ron Paul, who is a Republican. > > Who identifies himself as a libertarian, \ Gee, I don’t see “L” next to his name. I guess he’s Libertarian when people need him to be…like being gay for pay. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/183 "2010-08-18T04:20:24Z")
[quote=“Lobohan, post:178, topic:550207”] > [@Uzi](#): > > P1. And when you have things that are necessary, like a health care system, a universal one will cost much less. > > P2. The US auto industry could cause cascade failures of millions of jobs, if you count support companies and whatnot. It would be beyond stupid to allow an extra million or two jobs to disappear during a recession. You don’t understand economics at all, not even a little if you think we should _just suck it up_. That’s not a smart plan. In fact, it’s quite a stupid plan. > . P1. Food is necessary. Why don’t we have a universal food system? One that is run by the government? It should cost much less, according to you. Clothing is necessary. Why don’t we have a universal clothing system? One that is run by the government? It should cost much less, according to you. Housing is necessary. Why don’t we have a…oh, whoops. Sorry. We pretty much do, with the GSEs. It’s already cost us a couple hundred billion, and is destined to cost a couple hundred billion more at least. That confuses me. According to your logic, it should cost much less. P2. Let’s try a little thought experiment. It might help me and Uzi, since we’re obviously so stupid. Let’s pretend GM didn’t get the government bailout and declared bankruptcy. I’m going to assume for a moment that you know what that means. That’s a bit of a stretch, I realize, given your last dozen posts or so. I’ll try and help with some hints. In short, it means that it’s liabilities are wiped out and its assets are seized by its creditors. The plants, tooling, blueprints, intellectual property rights, etc. are all owned by its creditors, in exchange for taking a haircut on the company’s liabilities. There will also be a few tens of thousands of skilled employees hanging around with the knowledge of how to build cars. So the assets are still there, but owned by different people. The employees are still there, presumably, unless they picked up and moved on to somewhere else. What might happen next? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/184 "2010-08-18T04:36:06Z")
Profit! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/185 "2010-08-18T11:51:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Well, OK - if you are claiming along with **Wesley Clark** that Obama has shrunk the deficit, then you really must not understand that $1.56 trillion is a larger number than $1.2 trillion. > > I’m sure you’re not willfully misunderstanding this, so I suppose I need to keep trying to phrase this in a way you can understand. > > Obama has enacted policies that will lower the deficit. HCR lowers the deficit. Student loans lower the deficit. > > The deficit has risen during his term because of the Stimulus, Tarp and lowered tax revenue due to the recovery. Those things were necessary. You don’t think they were, but that’s because you don’t understand the issues. So the necessary things have increased the deficit, and things like HCR and the student loans will lower it. > > I’m sure that you can get this. Just try. > > See above. > > Again, you need to understand what has happened. The Stimulus, Tarp and the reduced revenues are things out of Obama’s control. They were necessary. If someone stabbed you and your wife opens up some gauze to plug your bleeding, that gauze money isn’t wasteful spending. > > I’m sorry that your news sources lie to you. I know you like to hear them. I know they make you feel happy and self-satisfied. But they’re just dreams. You need to wake up now. > > See above. > > It wasn’t a commitment, it was a prediction based on economic indicators available at the time. If you and me are on a road trip and you tell me that we have enough gas to get to the next town, but the sign that said it was 30 miles was wrong and it was 50 miles, it isn’t your fault. > > > [@](#): > > > > He has also claimed that he is going to cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term. This commitment is based on the same assumptions that he had when he proposed the stimulus (you know, the one that didn’t do what he said it would) and therefore that is a piece of evidence (for those of us who pay attention to evidence) that what he claims about the deficit is as stupid as what he claimed about job creation. > > It’s not good evidence. The stimulus was utterly necessary. It saved us from a depression. What economists are arguing about is the size of the stimulus and the particular programs. Not that it was necessary. > > The jobs numbers didn’t perform as well because the economy was performing even worse than the estimates they based it on. That’s an argument for more stimulus, not less. > > As for reducing the deficit, let’s see what happens. Too stupid; didn’t read. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/186 "2010-08-18T12:32:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > I’m sure you’re not willfully misunderstanding this, so I suppose I need to keep trying to phrase this in a way you can understand. > > > > Obama has enacted policies that will lower the deficit. HCR lowers the deficit. Student loans lower the deficit. > > > > The deficit has risen during his term because of the Stimulus, Tarp and lowered tax revenue due to the recovery. Those things were necessary. You don’t think they were, but that’s because you don’t understand the issues. So the necessary things have increased the deficit, and things like HCR and the student loans will lower it. > > > > I’m sure that you can get this. Just try. > > > > See above. > > > > Again, you need to understand what has happened. The Stimulus, Tarp and the reduced revenues are things out of Obama’s control. They were necessary. If someone stabbed you and your wife opens up some gauze to plug your bleeding, that gauze money isn’t wasteful spending. > > > > I’m sorry that your news sources lie to you. I know you like to hear them. I know they make you feel happy and self-satisfied. But they’re just dreams. You need to wake up now. > > > > See above. > > > > It wasn’t a commitment, it was a prediction based on economic indicators available at the time. If you and me are on a road trip and you tell me that we have enough gas to get to the next town, but the sign that said it was 30 miles was wrong and it was 50 miles, it isn’t your fault. > > > > It’s not good evidence. The stimulus was utterly necessary. It saved us from a depression. What economists are arguing about is the size of the stimulus and the particular programs. Not that it was necessary. > > > > The jobs numbers didn’t perform as well because the economy was performing even worse than the estimates they based it on. That’s an argument for more stimulus, not less. > > > > As for reducing the deficit, let’s see what happens. > > Too stupid; didn’t read. That’s o.k.-we like you despite that. Would it help if he used smaller words? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/187 "2010-08-18T13:14:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Too stupid; didn’t read. > > That’s o.k.-we like you despite that. Would it help if he used smaller words? Your post is not too stupid to read; just too stupid to take seriously. I guess that is an improvement. Just to round things out -[list=A][li] do you believe (as some do) that Obama shrunk the deficit? [_]Which number is larger - $1.2 trillion, or $1.56 trillion?[_]Do you believe that loans from the federal government that are [repaid](http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748703509404575300502253092016.html)from company earnings have the same effect, or a different effect, on the deficit?[\*]Do you believe that Obama is a Keynesian, who believes in deficit spending during a recession but reducing the deficit when the recession is over?[/list]Thinking thru your posts in light of these few simple questions may go a long way in reducing their abject stupidity. [/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/188 "2010-08-18T13:52:19Z")
**TWEEET!** Enough with throwing around the word “stupid” and its derivatives. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/189 "2010-08-18T14:33:13Z")
Sorry, **Czarcasm** , but your beliefs are based on lies. Try and do some basic research and get back to us when you understand the issues. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/190 "2010-08-18T14:51:46Z")
Shodan, the next personal attack will receive a Warning. Stop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/191 "2010-08-18T14:54:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sorry, **Czarcasm** , but your beliefs are based on lies. Try and do some basic research and get back to us when you understand the issues. You know what I believe, and what my beliefs are based on? That certainly qualifies you to apply for [this.](http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html) Edited to add: Sorry boss, didn’t see the warning. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/192 "2010-08-18T15:17:10Z")
**tomndebb** , if you would like to attempt to explain why a personal attack is sometimes not a personal attack, you can do so in this [thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12814054#post12814054) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/193 "2010-08-18T15:22:47Z")
Wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/194 "2010-08-18T15:40:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > That’s o.k.-we like you despite that. Would it help if he used smaller words? > > Your post is not too stupid to read; just too stupid to take seriously. I guess that is an improvement. > > Just to round things out - > do you believe (as some do) that Obama shrunk the deficit? > Which number is larger - $1.2 trillion, or $1.56 trillion? I think you are purposefully misunderstanding here, but in case you aren’t: HCR and the student loans WILL cost less than the systems that WERE in place. Obviously there hasn’t been time yet for them to lower the deficit. What people are saying is that these changes WILL lower the deficit. Not that they already have. So in the future, the deficit WILL be smaller than it WOULD HAVE been had these changes not been made. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/195 "2010-08-18T15:40:49Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > P1. Food is necessary. Why don’t we have a universal food system? One that is run by the government? It should cost much less, according to you. There is a system to distribute food. However, you should know that not everything is the same. Health Insurance isn’t selling widgets (or McBurgers), it’s paying someone else’s medical bills. It isn’t subject to the same market forces that widget (or food sales) are. And as it happens, a government system, with a large risk pool is much, much more efficient. That’s what happens to every other industrialized country with universal care. Why would you pay more for a worse system, just because it resonates with your ideology? > [@](#): > > Clothing is necessary. Why don’t we have a universal clothing system? One that is run by the government? It should cost much less, according to you. See above, not everything is the same. So some things, which are not the same, require different ways to deal with them. Simple answers to complex questions are almost always wrong. There is no one stop, once sentence solution for running an economy. > [@](#): > > Housing is necessary. Why don’t we have a…oh, whoops. Sorry. We pretty much do, with the GSEs. It’s already cost us a couple hundred billion, and is destined to cost a couple hundred billion more at least. That confuses me. According to your logic, it should cost much less. See above, you continue to make the same mistake. > [@](#): > > P2. Let’s try a little thought experiment. It might help me and Uzi, since we’re obviously so stupid. I don’t think either of you is stupid. I think you’re misinformed. > [@](#): > > Let’s pretend GM didn’t get the government bailout and declared bankruptcy. I’m going to assume for a moment that you know what that means. That’s a bit of a stretch, I realize, given your last dozen posts or so. > > I’ll try and help with some hints. In short, it means that it’s liabilities are wiped out and its assets are seized by its creditors. The plants, tooling, blueprints, intellectual property rights, etc. are all owned by its creditors, in exchange for taking a haircut on the company’s liabilities. There will also be a few tens of thousands of skilled employees hanging around with the knowledge of how to build cars. > > So the assets are still there, but owned by different people. The employees are still there, presumably, unless they picked up and moved on to somewhere else. > > What might happen next? The arguments for and against the government bailing out the auto makers were done to death. And you know, it is actually a policy decision. It’s the kind of discussion we should be having. Instead, from the right we get overkill arguments based on fantasy. But the fact is that the auto bailout, regardless of your opinion of the wisdom of it, isn’t going to drive the long term debt in any real way. While we’re on the subject, can I get an admission from you that your other line items, HCR and the Student Loan changes will in fact lower the deficit? Which means your argument above was completely wrong? Also, the Stimulus was completely necessary. Proper economic policy isn’t to suck up a depression because it would correct the market or whatever, any more than proper knife fighting technique is to try to break the other dude’s blade on your sternum. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/196 "2010-08-18T17:13:42Z")
> [@carm](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Your post is not too stupid to read; just too stupid to take seriously. I guess that is an improvement. > > > > Just to round things out - > > do you believe (as some do) that Obama shrunk the deficit? > > Which number is larger - $1.2 trillion, or $1.56 trillion? > > I think you are purposefully misunderstanding here, but in case you aren’t: > > HCR and the student loans WILL cost less than the systems that WERE in place. Obviously there hasn’t been time yet for them to lower the deficit. What people are saying is that these changes WILL lower the deficit. Not that they already have. I guess then, that you agree that it is not true that “Obama shrunk the deficit”, and that $1.56T is larger than $1.2T. > [@](#): > > So in the future, the deficit WILL be smaller than it WOULD HAVE been had these changes not been made. Which brings us back to the same point - Obama’s ideas about what the stimulus would accomplish turned out to be wrong, rather badly. (See previous about the 7.6 million jobs that didn’t show up as Obama expected, etc.) So, the basis that Obama used in his thinking about the economy was wrong. What he predicted did not come true. In the same way, his has made a prediction/promise/commitment/whatever you like to call it about cutting the deficit in half by the end of his first term - that is, to about $585 billion or so, or by about a trillion dollars. Since he made that prediction/promise/commitment/whatever you like to call it, he has **increased** the deficit. So, far from being on track to fulfill his promise, he is heading in exactly the wrong direction. So he stimulus package that he pushed failed. But I am expected to believe that his promise to cut the deficit to $585 billion is going to be fulfilled, even though he is pushing pretty hard the wrong way. Obama care, as I have pointed out in the past, will only reduce the deficit if cuts are made to Medicare. Those cuts, under the Medicare Sustainable Growth act, have been proposed every year for the last eight or nine years. And have been voted down every time, including times when the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and in times when they controlled both houses and the White House. And Obama is proposing a large increase in spending and in the deficit. He is not, to say the least, on track to fulfill this idea you have that he will shrink the deficit. Instead, he is on track to increase the national debt by more than every other President in history _put together._ Based on all this, I am expected to accept as gospel the notion that Obama is going to reduce the deficit. Unfortunately, some of us look at the price tag on the Brooklyn Bridge before we sign the purchase agreement. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/197 "2010-08-18T17:51:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I guess then, that you agree that it is not true that “Obama shrunk the deficit”, and that $1.56T is larger than $1.2T. Obama has not done anything unnecessary to raise the deficit. How does that work for ya? > [@](#): > > Which brings us back to the same point - Obama’s ideas about what the stimulus would accomplish turned out to be wrong, rather badly. (See previous about the 7.6 million jobs that didn’t show up as Obama expected, etc.) I notice you haven’t addressed the numerous posts where the mistakes in your assertion here were explained to you. Why is that? > [@](#): > > So, the basis that Obama used in his thinking about the economy was wrong. What he predicted did not come true. It’s been told to you several times why this is the case. > [@](#): > > In the same way, his has made a prediction/promise/commitment/whatever you like to call it about cutting the deficit in half by the end of his first term - that is, to about $585 billion or so, or by about a trillion dollars. Since he made that prediction/promise/commitment/whatever you like to call it, he has **increased** the deficit. So, far from being on track to fulfill his promise, he is heading in exactly the wrong direction. Again, the stimulus was utterly necessary. [Why not read up on it, so you can make an informed statement?](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/115xx/doc11525/05-25-ARRA.pdf) \<–PDF > [@](#): > > So he stimulus package that he pushed failed. But I am expected to believe that his promise to cut the deficit to $585 billion is going to be fulfilled, even though he is pushing pretty hard the wrong way. It didn’t fail in that we didn’t descend into a great depression. As to whether he manages to cut the deficit, I guess that remains to be seen. > [@](#): > > Obama care, as I have pointed out in the past, will only reduce the deficit if cuts are made to Medicare. Those cuts, under the Medicare Sustainable Growth act, have been proposed every year for the last eight or nine years. And have been voted down every time, including times when the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and in times when they controlled both houses and the White House. Most of the cuts are to Medicare Advantage. [Why don’t you read up on it?](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62J1FS20100322) In particular, the Medicare Sustainable Growth act argument [is Republican misinformation](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/one_more_time_with_the_medicar.html). > [@](#): > > And Obama is proposing a large increase in spending and in the deficit. He is not, to say the least, on track to fulfill this idea you have that he will shrink the deficit. Instead, he is on track to increase the national debt by more than every other President in history _put together._ That’s a particularly poor statement of reality. Obama needed to perform the stimulus, or the country would be in a depression now. Tax revenues are down due to the recession. Why would those costs be carried forward? You do understand that, right? So you comment is utterly without merit. > [@](#): > > Based on all this, I am expected to accept as gospel the notion that Obama is going to reduce the deficit. No, but you should look at the actual reality of the situation. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, some of us look at the price tag on the Brooklyn Bridge before we sign the purchase agreement. Some of us aren’t so silly as to buy it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/198 "2010-08-18T18:09:44Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I notice you haven’t addressed the numerous posts where the mistakes in your assertion here were explained to you. Why is that? There aren’t any such posts. None of my assertions are mistaken - Obama does have a 7.6 million job shortfall, the deficit is going up, not down, unemployment is higher than Obama thought it would be with his stimulus, TARP is being repaid while the stimulus isn’t, etc., etc. > [@](#): > > In particular, the Medicare Sustainable Growth act argument [is Republican misinformation](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/one_more_time_with_the_medicar.html). No, I am afraid what I said was exactly true, as your own cite mentions - > [@](#): > > soon SGR was requiring massive cuts. Democratic and Republican congresses alike have been delaying the cuts ever since. See how it works? When I say something, and you call it disinformation, and your cite says the same thing that I did, that means that I was right and you aren’t. > [@](#): > > Tax revenues are down due to the recession. Why would those costs be carried forward? Do you understand what the word “debt” means? If you do, then you understand why the costs of the stimulus and all the deficit spending Obama is doing (except for much of TARP, which is being repaid at least in part) are carried forward. Obama is borrowing huge sums of money, far more than any other President in history. Much of it has been squandered on a poorly focused mess of a stimulus package, much of which was mere pork for Democratic constituencies. This package did not have the eff4ect Obama said it would - unsurprisingly, since he lacks the relevant business or economic experience to actually do anything much worthwhile. Even though much of the stimulus was wasted, we still have to pay it back. Unlike TARP, as I mentioned, it is pure spending. So now we have to pay all that back, plus interest. Government costs have to be paid for, or carried forward. Obama is pretending not to know this. but the adults have to keep it in mind. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/199 "2010-08-18T18:09:46Z")
I can certainly relate to **Shodan** ’s rage and fury at being lied to, I feel much the same, and have felt so for a very long time. But its not specific in my case, I can’t put my finger on the precise moment that it came to be. He has the advantage of me there, in his case, his commitment to veracity and candor came about in January, 2009. And yet so many suggest that the election of Obama has not improved our political discourse, when so many…so very many!..have rediscovered a firm insistence of complete truthfulness on the part of our President. A pity, perhaps, that it did not arise sooner. But so it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/200 "2010-08-18T18:33:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > I notice you haven’t addressed the numerous posts where the mistakes in your assertion here were explained to you. Why is that? > > There aren’t any such posts. None of my assertions are mistaken - Obama does have a 7.6 million job shortfall, the deficit is going up, not down, unemployment is higher than Obama thought it would be with his stimulus, TARP is being repaid while the stimulus isn’t, etc., etc. Why would the stimulus be repaid? It’s emergency spending. Also, you have been shown that your argument is mush. You are pointing to a fact that does not show what you are saying it shows. That’s why you’re wrong. Get it? > [@](#): > > No, I am afraid what I said was exactly true, as your own cite mentions -See how it works? When I say something, and you call it disinformation, and your cite says the same thing that I did, that means that I was right and you aren’t. Again, it’s amazing that you didn’t bother to read the cite. If you had, you’d understand that the Medicare Sustainable Growth act argument you like to drag out isn’t actually true. The Medicare Sustainable Growth act has nothing to do with the cost of the Health Care Reform. Health Care Reform is a separate bill that is accounted for. The MSGA is a cost cutting measure with no teeth that has an unrealistic equation. Two separate issues. Get it? > [@](#): > > Do you understand what the word “debt” means? If you do, then you understand why the costs of the stimulus and all the deficit spending Obama is doing (except for much of TARP, which is being repaid at least in part) are carried forward. Sure, I had thought you were talking about the deficit, since that seems to be your focus. Obama’s increases to the debt seem unlikely to be more than every other president combined. Care to drop us a cite? In any case, the Stimulus was still necessary. So only a complete partisan would try to hold that against him. If you get stabbed and your wife opens up a pack of gauze to plug your wound, the gauze isn’t wasteful spending. > [@](#): > > Obama is borrowing huge sums of money, far more than any other President in history. Much of it has been squandered on a poorly focused mess of a stimulus package, much of which was mere pork for Democratic constituencies. Meaningless dig with no substance. > [@](#): > > This package did not have the eff4ect Obama said it would - unsurprisingly, since he lacks the relevant business or economic experience to actually do anything much worthwhile. Laughable. The stimulus saved us from a depression. The projected unemployment numbers were based on info available when they made the projection. The actual more accurate info that came later showed the situation was worse than they thought at the time, hence the worse unemployment numbers. This is really simple stuff, yet you ignore it time after time. Can your ideology stand up to actual facts? > [@](#): > > Even though much of the stimulus was wasted, we still have to pay it back. Unlike TARP, as I mentioned, it is pure spending. So now we have to pay all that back, plus interest. Of course we have to pay it back. Because the vast majority of economists think that deficit spending is better than a depression. If you don’t agree with that, well that’s all well and good, but thankfully you’re not in a position to make those choices. > [@](#): > > Government costs have to be paid for, or carried forward. Obama is pretending not to know this. but the adults have to keep it in mind. I appreciate the dig, but I am an adult, and I want to have a discussion with real arguments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207.md?page=11)