# How did conservatives create such a powerful grassroots movement recently **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207 "2010-08-14T02:32:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/121 "2010-08-16T22:50:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Frankly, I doubt it. Actual racism, the kind I grew up with, is simply not acceptable any more. Most people who I’ve seen express racist views don’t even know they are racist views. For instance, they hold the view that everybody on welfare is a lazy bum, and in their minds eye, when they think of a welfare recipient, they think of somebody black, but they don’t make the connection. Because they don’t admit, even to themselves, that they are holding a racist view. > > And if you tell them they are being racists, they get mad at you for insulting them! > > Hypocrisy isn’t always pretending to believe something you don’t. Sometimes its not knowing, not questioning the assumptions you make without thinking. Like, the (false) assumption that the average welfare recipient is black. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/122 "2010-08-16T23:03:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Like, the (false) assumption that the average welfare recipient is black. What if I told you that a black person is 5 times more likely to be on welfare than a white person in America. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/123 "2010-08-16T23:08:33Z")
I’d say we got a whole lot more work to do. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/124 "2010-08-16T23:17:44Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Barack Obama did not have a mandate to expand the public sector of the economy with an ambitious health care plan. He had two assignments: restore the good economic numbers of Clinton’s last term, and achieve stressful conclusions to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. If he had achieved both of those goals he would have earned the political capital to move ahead on health care. Because unemployment has continued to grow since Obama’s inauguration, he has reinforced the suspicions of conservatives who voted for him, that the government cannot do any thing right. While focusing on the economy and ending the wars (somehow) would have been better politically for the Democrats and probably also better in the short term for the country i disagree that Obama did not have a mandate to reform Health Care or that there was any chance in hell of it happening after the 2010 elections. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/125 "2010-08-17T01:32:23Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > > > Lately it seems the tea party and a grassroots conservative movement that exists outside of the control of the republican party has accomplished a lot when it comes to using primaries to the right to push out establishment candidates and put up tea party candidates all over the nation. > > It is no accident that the tea Party came into existence after a black man’s inaugeration as the president of the United States. > > It is no accident that racist expressions are forthcoming from Tea Partiers . > > The only explanation that I have is that there is a serious racism going on in America, and that white people who do not normally vote are being energized to take back America for the whites and they are using the Republican party as their best bet.. > Am I serious? Well I am seriously thinking about it. Its not something I care to admit. I don’t think many Republicans want to admit it either. I believe that race plays a big part in the tea party movement. Not the only part, but definately one of their top 5 motivators. Either way, I’m not as interested in their motives of being tea party members as how they managed to build such an effective political machine in such a short period of time. That is what interests me, because I wish liberals had a political machine that was as powerful as the tea party. If liberals were capable of doing 10+ primaries from the left in the 2010 senate election cycle, it would have been amazing. Instead we got 2, and we lost one of those (Halter). The tea party is intimidating the GOP into submission while the democratic party is insulting their base. The saying ‘The republican party fears their base, the democratic party hates theirs’ is true. The democratic base (liberals, unions, the poor) are mostly ignored and ridiculed by the higher ups. Robert Gibbs comes to mind. How did the tea party become so effective at doing primaries from the right in such a short period of time? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/126 "2010-08-17T02:20:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > Since the end of the draft in 1973 the Left in the United States has not had issues it could use to appeal to the self interest of the well educated. In the late 1960’s and early 1970’s the great majority of male college students at elite colleges and universities did not want to fight in Vietnam, because they knew they had much to live for. Their girl friends and parents agree with them. > > > > Elite centers of higher learning may have faculties that are to the left of center, and they sway many of their students. Nevertheless, it is difficult to feel very angry at American capitalism, when one knows that it will amply reward one after graduation. This is even true during our economic down turn. > > > > On the other hand, since 1973 the right has been able to appeal to lower income whites who are alienated by social changes that have happened since the 1960’s. > > > > For these two reasons, there has been quite a lot more energy on the right than on the left since 1980. > > You made some excellent points, but you left out the Bush years-- especially 2006 thru 2008-- where the left was highly energized and the right was beaten down pretty badly. And McCain did little, if anything to counter that with the horrendous campaign he ran. Unfortunately, the economy has continued to decline under Obama, and the situation in Afghanistan does not look good. My attitude is that no matter how bad things get, they would be worse under the Republicans, but that is not the American consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/127 "2010-08-17T02:30:19Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > Cutting taxes at the beginning of a war is a good start on bankrupting the country. > > Thanks for the post. > > So would you mind throwing some numbers around? As in, > > - The total cost of the war (I’m not arguing that it was stupid, or expensive) > - The total change in on-balance sheet government debt over the past few years > - The total change in off-balance sheet government debt over the past few years > > Since excessive debt, of course, is what ‘bankrupts’ an entity. > > And we can start picking through what decisions, and what agenda items, were responsible for each. > > Just for starters, let’s make sure we have handy at our fingertips some of the big drivers of debt and government spending > > - The amount of losses subsidized at Freddie and Fannie, and a reasonable estimate of how much more of the $5 trillion portfolio will go bad, causing more losses > - Ditto for the student loan market that the government is now effectively subsidizing > - The $867 billion Obama stimulus > - The costs of Obamacare going forward > - Various other and sundry bailouts (such as GM) > > And then we can start to size it up. I recently read a blurb by economists that if Obama & Bush had not pursued the unpopular policies they did (TARP, GM bailout, financial bailouts, stimulus bill) that we would have an additional 9-10 million unemployed on top of what we already have (aka 15% U3 unemployment) and the deficit would be 2 trillion instead of 1.4 trillion. How valid it is, I don’t know. But the stimulus and bailouts were probably a good idea that helps slow unemployment and shrink the deficit. And taking the issue serious was one of the few things I agree with Bush on. Obamacare cuts the deficit. It will shrink medicare costs over time, and hopefully slow the rate of medical inflation. The student loan reform saved money too. Instead of the government paying private lenders to loan money, the gov. cut out the middle man and saved tens of billions a year. Basically, everything you’ve listed cuts the deficit rather than increases it. Making student loans more efficient, helping the economy survive the great recession and reforming health care are all cutting the deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/128 "2010-08-17T02:31:24Z")
Heh saying that the tea baggers are Libertarians is just smoke. The birth of the movement is credited to Ron Paul, who is a Republican. Again, read the demographics in the Wiki article. Tea baggers are repubs, and very likely far smaller than anyone believes. In the article, there’s lots and lots of details about where they had rallies and which media sources covered them (Fox News, what a surprise) but no attendance numbers. Let’s see someone run on the Libertarian ticket (rather than a Repub with tea bagger support.) I’ll bet any amount they won’t even get 10% of the national vote if they aren’t in one of the two major parties. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/129 "2010-08-17T02:33:40Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Unfortunately, the economy has continued to decline under Obama, and the situation in Afghanistan does not look good. My attitude is that no matter how bad things get, they would be worse under the Republicans, but that is not the American consensus. Why don’t you feel that is the American consensus? Even though the GOP will gain seats in 2010, I don’t think it is because the public seriously think the GOP have competent, well thought out ideas to make the economy stronger. Very few people think that, and the ones who do are already members of the diehard GOP minority. The GOP is going to win because they are the non-incumbent party. Not because their ideas are any good. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/130 "2010-08-17T03:03:40Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > You made some excellent points, but you left out the Bush years-- especially 2006 thru 2008-- where the left was highly energized and the right was beaten down pretty badly. And McCain did little, if anything to counter that with the horrendous campaign he ran. > > Unfortunately, the economy has continued to decline under Obama, and the situation in Afghanistan does not look good. My attitude is that no matter how bad things get, they would be worse under the Republicans, but that is not the American consensus. It’s more like the economy has not recovered as fast as people would like under Obama. We are by every measure doing a ton better than we were two years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/131 "2010-08-17T04:18:30Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Heh saying that the tea baggers are Libertarians is just smoke. The birth of the movement is credited to Ron Paul, who is a Republican. Who identifies himself as a libertarian, and has been a leader in the Libertarian movement for a long time. In fact, he was the Libertarian party’s candidate for President in 1988. This supports the point that the Tea Party is libertarian-oriented. > [@](#): > > Again, read the demographics in the Wiki article. Tea baggers are repubs, and very likely far smaller than anyone believes. In the article, there’s lots and lots of details about where they had rallies and which media sources covered them (Fox News, what a surprise) but no attendance numbers. There have always been libertarian-leaning Republicans. The Republican party has a social conservative/religious right wing, a ‘business class’ wing, and a libertarian wing. The Tea Party is is made up of more of the libertarian and business-oriented Republicans, and fewer of the religious right/social conservatives. > [@](#): > > Let’s see someone run on the Libertarian ticket (rather than a Repub with tea bagger support.) I’ll bet any amount they won’t even get 10% of the national vote if they aren’t in one of the two major parties. Which is exactly why the Tea Party isn’t advocating a policy of running 3rd party candidates. But it heavily supported Rand Paul, who is even more libertarian than his father. There are plenty of Christian conservatives in the Tea Party movement, but social conservatism is not their animating issue. Small government is. As an analogy, the Democrats were motivated by anti-war sentiment in the last couple of elections, and picked up independents who were against the war. That doesn’t mean there were no socialists or free-Mumia wackos left in the Democratic grassroots movement - just that they weren’t the ones driving the rallies and getting out the vote and attracting independents. They were relegated to the back bench. And so it is with social conservatives in the Tea Party. Or let’s put it this way - if the tea party had to pick between two candidates, one of whom wanted smaller government and lower taxes and a repeal of Obamacare but who also supported gay marriage and drug legalization, and the other who was a hardcore social conservative campaigning on opposition to gay marriage and abortion, but who also supported more government stimulus and government-run health care, the first candidate would win tea party support in a landslide. There are however two types of Republican that have been obliterated completely - the big government ‘compassionate conservatives’ like George Bush, and the neo-cons. Neither have any impact in the Republican party right now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/132 "2010-08-17T04:35:35Z")
I see. So GeeDubya was one of those touchy-feely, huggy bear, big nannystate Republicans. Uh-huh. Too much into government interference with vigorous entrepreneurship, all that tree-hugging environmentalism and stuff. Right. OK. Good to calibrate. Not sufficiently suckitive of business interests. Hokey-dokey. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/133 "2010-08-17T04:44:43Z")
Quoth **Wesley Clark** : > [@](#): > > If liberals were capable of doing 10+ primaries from the left in the 2010 senate election cycle, it would have been amazing. Instead we got 2, and we lost one of those (Halter). The tea party is intimidating the GOP into submission while the democratic party is insulting their base. The saying ‘The republican party fears their base, the democratic party hates theirs’ is true. The democratic base (liberals, unions, the poor) are mostly ignored and ridiculed by the higher ups. Robert Gibbs comes to mind. > > How did the tea party become so effective at doing primaries from the right in such a short period of time? I would hold off on calling their primary challenges “successful” until we see how they do against their Democratic opponents. It won’t do them much good to win primaries but lose the generals. Quoth **Sam Stone** : > [@](#): > > Which is exactly why the Tea Party isn’t advocating a policy of running 3rd party candidates. But it heavily supported Rand Paul, who is even more libertarian than his father. In what sense, aside from having the last name “Paul”, is Rand Paul even remotely libertarian? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/134 "2010-08-17T04:44:44Z")
Government spending exploded under Bush. He greatly increased the budgets of many government agencies. He introduced a new Medicare entitlement. He created “No Child Left Behind”. He send more development aid money to Africa than any other president by a long shot. He, like his father, had no real problem with big government. He just wanted it used for conservative ends. He didn’t want to redistribute wealth, but he did push for an ‘ownership society’ and use government money to help that along. Trust me, real fiscal conservatives can reel off a laundry list of reasons to dislike George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/135 "2010-08-17T04:49:17Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > It’s not recent – they started building the movement back in the '70s; Reagan was their first success, but not their last. From my point of view it’s a bad thing, but conservatives have been pretty much running things since about 1980. Go back about ten more years and you really get to a place where what they then called a generally conservative ethos included some things that would now be regarded, or at least criticized by present-day conservatives as profoundly liberal or left wing. None other than Richard Nixon advocated UHC during a speech at some point during his administration. Incidentally there was an article in the L.A. Times, a few days ago, describing a few weeks in the summer of '74 when Venice became a sort of de facto nude beach. Interestingly it took several weeks for the City Council to deal with the issue by passing an ordinance against nude sunbathing. On the bright, or at least the pro-naked side, they at least considered the idea of providing for clothing-optional beach areas and, even if that idea was put down in the end, it’s remarkable that it was considered at all. I mention the story because this sort of thing, combined with where the political center then seemed to be, almost gives you the impression that we were going to go in the same direction as Western Europe–and at a similar pace. How far we have swung back to the right, politically and culturally, since then is astonishing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/136 "2010-08-17T05:02:01Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > Like, the (false) assumption that the average welfare recipient is black. > > What if I told you that a black person is 5 times more likely to be on welfare than a white person in America. I’d say that’s still not enough to make the average person on welfare black, since they are after all a minority. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Government spending exploded under Bush. It always does under Republicans. As proponents of selfishness being a virtue, they naturally care nothing for the welfare of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/137 "2010-08-17T06:13:08Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Take a look at who is controlling the reigns of power in the executive branch, and powerful committees in the HoR, right now > > - Barack Obama, an academic urban liberal > - Nancy Pelosi, a San Francisco-based urban liberal > - Barney Frank, a Boston-area urban liberal > - Henry Waxman, a Beverley Hills-based urban liberal > - Charles Rangel…never mind. > > Anyway, look at the above list. Is that representative of America? Actually the current makeup of the HoR’s leadership is exactly what you would expect based on the way the system is designed, and also on the fact that the people who live in those cities keep on re-electing them. Urban residents tend to be more left-leaning, which in turn is a natural result of the realities of city life. For example, you’re more likely to be a renter, and you’re also more likely to favor the sinking of large amounts of public money into huge infrastructure projects like mass transit. You’re probably also more likely to oppose the NRA. And more important than any of this, in terms of the House leadership, is that term limits seem to be one of the conservatives’ favorite silver bullets, and as such tends to have little attraction for the left wing. For this reason, Pelosi et al. didn’t get voted out of their districts, whoever happened to win or retain control in any given election, and kept their own seats for many years. Now that their party is in power they, as the senior Democrats in Congress, naturally have taken the leadership positions. Voila. Is it exactly representative of America? No, but not any less so than the Republicans were in 1994. The House leadership tends to present an exaggerated version of the any actual leftward or rightward bent of the electorate. Today it’s the more liberal Democrats who are running the committees and holding the Speaker’s chair, just as in 1994 it was Newt Gingrich and other conservative Republicans who ran things then. You can look at a red-blue map of the U.S. and 99% of the country is red, but since we actually vote by population, rather than square miles, the political center is probably not as far to the right as you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/138 "2010-08-17T07:09:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > > > And now it’s happening from the other side, primarily due to the current adminstration’s tone-deafness about lots of things. Ramming through Obamacare was the big one…polls consistently show 55% to 70% of America oppose it. > > Primarily because it didn’t go far enough. People wanted some form of UHC, not a warmed over Republican plan. > > Liberal? Since when is Obama a liberal? He’s a moderate right winger, a corporate conservative. He was pretty liberal in the campaign, and I believe he still is at heart. But what he has been able to accomplish has been limited by the drag from behind. Sadly, there just wasn’t going to be an HC reform law if it didn’t include the precious private insurance companies or five year waiting period. Whoever said that about “sops to the unions [and other liberal interests]” was spot on. _To throw a sop_ to someone is to give a minor concession to the loser in a conflict, and to a lot of liberals it doesn’t appear like we’re winning right now. > [@](#): > > Hardly. America is largely composed of near-fascists, plutocrats and Christian bigots. The center is waaaay to the left of most Americans. I feel your pain and I agree with you, but this is by definition a contradiction. If America were really composed largely of near-fascists, plutocrats, and Christian bigots, then that’s were the center would be. > [@](#): > > > [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > > > No way. It’s all coming from the Hard Left. > > :rolleyes: “Hard left”? There IS no “hard left” of significance in this country, and they certainly aren’t in charge. And what Left there is dislikes Obama and Pelosi and so on for being right wingers or sellouts to the Right. You obviously have no idea what actual left wingers are like if you think that Obama of all people remotely qualifies. Exactly. If actual left wingers ran the show, the whole health insurance industry\* would not exist as a fundamental piece of the system, because as such it’s another cost layer in the system. As it is not only do doctors and other providers need to be paid, but so do the employees and executives of the insurance companies. The reported profits of the insurers may be only a few percent, but salaries and massive executive payouts are expenses, not profits, from those companies’ perspective. Yet it’s we who pay that money ultimately through our premiums. It’s sort of like a protection racket. Q. Why do we have to pay insurance premiums? A. Because otherwise the insurance company won’t pay for our doctor visits and surgeries. Q. But wouldn’t it be cheaper and more efficient to have a single payer system? A. Yes, but we can’t, because that would leave no place for the health insurers, indeed remove the very reason for their existence. Q. And? A. The insurance companies wouldn’t like being voted out of existence, and their wishes are paramount. Somewhere, somehow, they must be allowed to carry on business as usual and continue to grab their usual slice of the HC money pie. A true leftist regards that as an unconscionable gouging of the body politic. In a UHC model, the federal government, in taking on the administrative tasks now done by the insurers, would also have to pay employees to do that work. However, in spite of problems at the fundamental fiscal level, Medicare as it is today is pretty efficient in terms of administration. And, as an operation, MC is not interested in making a profit for anyone; all that matters is that current and future expenses can be met. The billing industry is another cost layer – and the inefficiency and incompetence here can be astounding–which also will bite the dust if the real Leftists ever do come to power. \*Health insurers might still exist, but their products would represent extras, rather than the essentials of being covered for ordinary doctor visits and procedures or treatments the doctor deems necessary. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/139 "2010-08-17T07:40:26Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > Unfortunately, the economy has continued to decline under Obama, and the situation in Afghanistan does not look good. My attitude is that no matter how bad things get, they would be worse under the Republicans, but that is not the American consensus. > > It’s more like the economy has not recovered as fast as people would like under Obama. We are by every measure doing a ton better than we were two years ago. In 2008 the unemployment rate was 5.8&. Now it is close to 10%. [http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html#axzz0wqXxPyQe](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html#axzz0wqXxPyQe) Unemployment has grown since the inauguration of Barack Obama. "Forty-eight percent of voters now believe that President Obama’s policies are to blame for the bad economy, while 47 percent fault former President George W. Bush. According to a new Rasmussen survey, Obama’s 48 percent represents a three-point increase since last month, giving him a greater share of the blame than Bush for the first time since May 2009, when the question was first polled. “At that time, 62 percent of likely voters blamed Bush and 27 percent blamed Obama.” > **[Poll: Bush, Obama Nearly Tied for Blame on Bad Economy | Matzav.com](http://matzav.com/poll-bush-obama-nearly-tied-for-blame-on-bad-economy/)** ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207/140 "2010-08-17T08:22:58Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > In 2008 the unemployment rate was 5.8&. Now it is close to 10%. > [http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html#axzz0wqXxPyQe](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html#axzz0wqXxPyQe) Awfully misleading though to take an average or median out the entire year since unemployment skyrocketed in the final months of 2008. [Here](http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&met=unemployment_rate&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment)’s a more accurate month by month breakdown. Unemployment for January 2009, (when Obama assumed the Presidency) was already at 8.5% and skyrocketing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-conservatives-create-such-a-powerful-grassroots-movement-recently/550207.md?page=8)