# How did early Christians reconcile divinity of the bible with it's human authors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751 "2018-12-26T19:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/21 "2018-12-27T13:31:55Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I get the impression that the OP is thinking of the Christian Bible the way Muslims think of the Quran, as having been dictated/revealed directly by God. The few Christians who believe that also tend to think the Bible was originally written in English. I’ve even encountered a couple who believed that it wasn’t even dictated but directly poffed into existence or something like that: they weren’t very clear on the details, or on why would God poff into existence things such as a letter saying (paraphrased) “when I came to visit you, y’all fed me, housed me and helped me get a job, for which I am grateful”. > [@dstarfire](#): > > Okay, maybe I should have left it as “early christians”. Modern christianity considers the bible as a collection of metaphors, lessons, what-have-you, but even just a few centuries ago, (as I understand it), they considered it the literal truth. They were constantly trying to make scientific discoveries match up with the bible (e.g. the pope’s librarian famously wrote an essay saying the rings of Saturn were where Jesus left his foreskin). Actually, no. There are Evangelicals in the US which are more literal than your average 14th-century Christian. Augustine, Ildefonso de Toledo and others said time and again that when science and the Bible disagree, the Bible should be interpreted as not being literal. And what the bloody fuck does that librarian on LSD have to do with the Bible being literal is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/22 "2018-12-27T13:35:24Z")
Christianity existed before the was a New Testament. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/23 "2018-12-27T13:56:11Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I get the impression that the OP is thinking of the Christian Bible the way Muslims think of the Quran, as having been dictated/revealed directly by God. fyi, the Torah is also said to have been dictated. But I think the rest of the Jewish Bible, and all of the Christian New Testament, is just “divinely inspired”. Hmm, The Book or Mormon was maybe written by God? But translated by a divinely inspired Joseph Smith? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I, an atheist, speak “the word of God” whenever I say the truth? He gets the credit when I say the right thing? Sure. I know lots of religious people who would give God credit for that. > [@Nava](#): > > …There are Evangelicals in the US which are more literal than your average 14th-century Christian. Augustine, Ildefonso de Toledo and others said time and again that when science and the Bible disagree, the Bible should be interpreted as not being literal… Yup. And texts in ancient times were, in general, more allegorical and less intended to be taken literally than the current style of “non fiction”. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/24 "2018-12-27T14:32:44Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > Okay, maybe I should have left it as “early christians”. Modern christianity considers the bible as a collection of metaphors, lessons, what-have-you, but even just a few centuries ago, (as I understand it), they considered it the literal truth. Says who? The statement: “they considered [the Bible] the literal truth” is so vague and broad that it makes no sense. The Bible is not one book. It is a collection of 73 books that were written by dozens of different authors in multiple languages and genres and over the span of many centuries. Some parts of the Bible were written as historical record, some parts were written as poetry, some parts were written as biography, some parts were written for the purpose of teaching. And the first Christians did not have access to anything like the Bible as we know it today (even if they did, most of them would not be able to read it). They had **The Church**. The Church came first. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/25 "2018-12-27T14:36:47Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > …if I wanted to ensure the message was conveyed accurately and in a way that receivers would have good grounds for believing was divine. Well, God became incarnate in the person of Jesus and founded a society that we call the Catholic Church that is still going strong today with over 1 billion followers. After the crucifixion, he did rise from the dead. Resurrection from the dead is pretty convincing to me in proving his divinity. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/26 "2018-12-27T14:37:45Z")
“God told me to tell you” There. I just summarized most of the religions in the world. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/27 "2018-12-27T14:38:24Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > There are still many, many, many people who believe the Bible is literally true. And there are still many, many, many people who will willfully disregard empirical evidence that does not conform to their religion. Why do you use the word “still”? American evangelicalism is a relatively new phenomenon in the history of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/28 "2018-12-27T14:39:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I, an atheist, speak “the word of God” whenever I say the truth? He gets the credit when I say the right thing? Sure, why not? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/29 "2018-12-27T14:42:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By “traditionally Christian”, do you mean the majority of all the different sects that consider themselves to be Christian, or just those you consider to be Christian? I’m referring to Christians whose beliefs and practices go back to the Apostles. There are plenty of Christians whose beliefs/practices are novel (16th century or later), especially in the US where Protestant evangelicalism reigns supreme. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/30 "2018-12-27T15:18:56Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Well, God became incarnate in the person of Jesus and founded a society that we call the Catholic Church that is still going strong today with over 1 billion followers. After the crucifixion, he did rise from the dead. Resurrection from the dead is pretty convincing to me in proving his divinity. Over a billion followers means most of the world’s population has yet to either hear the “good news” or is unconvinced by it. And who can blame them? In a time where there were already plenty of religions and myths of divine people walking along us Omnimax God chose… to spread his word via human word of mouth the same as all the myths. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/31 "2018-12-27T15:33:52Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Well, God became incarnate in the person of Jesus and founded a society that we call the Catholic Church that is still going strong today with over 1 billion followers. After the crucifixion, he did rise from the dead. Resurrection from the dead is pretty convincing to me in proving his divinity. Many Christs have been written about well before this one, and also after, who are also said to have been resurrected, why give credence to this one in particular when the evidence is so weak and credulously told? There is nothing that proves his divinity, it’s a faith thing, your heart aches for it to be true, and it promises you and your loved ones an afterlife if only they have faith and believe that this happened. But leave proof out of it. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/32 "2018-12-27T15:37:16Z")
> [@Razncain](#): > > …when the evidence is so weak and credulously told? I disagree with this assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/33 "2018-12-27T15:57:59Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I disagree with this assertion. If you have evidence then please present it. It might be slightly off topic but I’m sure we’d all welcome hearing proof of the divine for the first time ever. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/34 "2018-12-27T16:00:33Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m referring to Christians whose beliefs and practices go back to the Apostles. Do you seriously imagine that the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church are unchanged from the time of the apostles? The Eastern Orthodox church also traces its beliefs and practices back to the time of the apostles (the Great Schism was in 1054) - and look how different they are. It was 3 centuries after the apostles before Christians even _began_ to standardise their beliefs from the multiple variations that existed then. If the apostle Peter were to walk into St. Peter’s today and attend mass, he’d wonder which religion the service belonged to - certainly not his. You may claim that the differences and changes are divinely inspired, but other Christian denominations strongly disagree with that. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > There are plenty of Christians whose beliefs/practices are novel (16th century or later), especially in the US where Protestant evangelicalism reigns supreme. On the contrary, Protestants from the 16th century onward have felt that _they_ are going back to the original religion of the apostles, by getting rid of all the novel alterations in beliefs and practices, and all the weird rococo additions, that the Catholic Church gradually picked up over the centuries. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/35 "2018-12-27T16:06:04Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If you have evidence then please present it. > It might be slightly off topic but I’m sure we’d all welcome hearing proof of the divine for the first time ever. I’m not talking about proof. I’m saying that I disagree with your assertion that the evidence for the divinity of Jesus is “weak and credulously told”. I believe that the testimony of the Apostles/the Church and the Gospel accounts are reliable, and I believe that the evidence is good. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/36 "2018-12-27T16:13:27Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Do you seriously imagine that the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church are unchanged from the time of the apostles? The Eastern Orthodox church also traces its beliefs and practices back to the time of the apostles (the Great Schism was in 1054) - and look how different they are. Yes, the beliefs are unchanged, though they have of course been developed and deepened. The liturgy has evolved, but is actually remarkably unchanged. The Eastern Catholic Churches (fully Catholic - in communion with the Pope) have liturgies that are very similar if not identical to the Orthodox. I think you overestimate the differences. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > It was 3 centuries after the apostles before Christians even _began_ to standardise their beliefs from the multiple variations that existed then. Naturally. As theologians begin to deviate from the deposit of faith, someone needs to step in and pull them back into orthodoxy. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > If the apostle Peter were to walk into St. Peter’s today and attend mass, he’d wonder which religion the service belonged to - certainly not his. Oh really? Can you back up this assertion with evidence? > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > On the contrary, Protestants from the 16th century onward have felt that _they_ are going back to the original religion of the apostles, by getting rid of all the novel alterations in beliefs and practices, and all the weird rococo additions, that the Catholic Church gradually picked up over the centuries. They can feel whatever they want, but where is the evidence that the Apostles held their novel views regarding justification by faith alone, sola scriptura, invisible church, etc? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/37 "2018-12-27T16:18:00Z")
Much of the Old Testament purports to be historical accounts, much like Edward Gibbon’s _The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_ (or Geoffrey of Monmouth’s _The History of the Kings of Britain_). Much of the New Testament purports to be epistles, much like Benjamin Franklin’s _Advice to a Friend on Choosing a Mistress_. Do you reject the teachings of Gibbon or Franklin because they were not gods? The Gospels themselves do purport to include the words of God’s only begotten son as allegedly recalled by eye-witnesses, along with their reactions thereto: > [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep. And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, “Lord, save us: we perish.” And he saith unto them, **“Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?”** Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. But the men marvelled, saying, “What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!” And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/38 "2018-12-27T16:27:02Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m referring to Christians whose beliefs and practices go back to the Apostles. > > There are plenty of Christians whose beliefs/practices are novel (16th century or later), especially in the US where Protestant evangelicalism reigns supreme. This basically boils down to “Christians that believe what I believe agree with what I believe.” I don’t suppose you’ve every heard of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/39 "2018-12-27T16:29:19Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m not talking about proof. > > I’m saying that I disagree with your assertion that the evidence for the divinity of Jesus is “weak and credulously told”. I believe that the testimony of the Apostles/the Church and the Gospel accounts are reliable, and I believe that the evidence is good. It is nice that you believe what you believe, but would you mind presenting this evidence that you rate as “good” so that we may form our own beliefs as to its veracity? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/40 "2018-12-27T16:37:04Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > Several of the books of the bible are named for the people (e.g. John, Paul, etc.) on whose writings that book is based, or even written by that person. Also, we know that the books of the bible were decided upon at a meeting\* of senior clergymen. > > How did Christians reconcile this as “the word of god” when so much of it was written, edited, and/or compiled by mortal humans? One of the criteria that was used by those “senior clergymen” in deciding what should be included in the New Testament was “Apostolic authority”: they were books that were (believed to be) either written directly by, or based on the testimony of, the apostles. In other words, they were accepted as true _because_ they were written by human beings who were in a position to know what they were writing about. Moderns are more skeptical about apostolic authorship (of at least some books). For instance, though some of the more conservative Christians still insist that the Gospel of Matthew was written by one of Jesus’s Twelve Disciples, most mainstream scholars today reject this view—without necessarily inferring that we can’t trust what that book says about Jesus, just that such trust has to rest on other grounds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751.md?page=3)