# How did early Christians reconcile divinity of the bible with it's human authors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751 "2018-12-26T19:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/141 "2018-12-28T20:10:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Before the New Testament existed as the collection of documents we now have, there were those who depended on word-of-mouth and various missives from various peoples to sustain their beliefs…but is there any evidence that what self-declared Christians believed before the establishment and acceptance of said New Testament was a _shared_ belief? The Q Source may have been written down as early as the 30’s, perhaps even while Jesus was still alive or just after His death. Many scholars hypothesis that _Quelle_ is the source of the three synoptic Gospels. So, many sayings of Jesus were indeed part of a shared belief. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/142 "2018-12-28T20:13:24Z")
Can you tell me, with a straight face, that if any of the gospels had said anything other than that it would have been included in the New Testament? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/143 "2018-12-28T20:15:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Before the New Testament existed as the collection of documents we now have, there were those who depended on word-of-mouth and various missives from various peoples to sustain their beliefs…but is there any evidence that what self-declared Christians believed before the establishment and acceptance of said New Testament was a _shared_ belief? The NT was canonized in 397AD at the (3rd) Council of Carthage. To find out what pre-canonization Christians believed, you have to look at writings from church fathers pre-397. The fathers have recorded agreement on many key issues. Even the Council of Nicea took place prior to NT canonization, so look at the declarations made there (including the Nicene Creed). ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/144 "2018-12-28T20:19:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you tell me, with a straight face, that if any of the gospels had said anything other than that it would have been included in the New Testament? There are so-called “gospels” that were not included. One reason they were not included is that they didn’t align with the teachings of the Apostles and their successors. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/145 "2018-12-28T20:25:37Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > There are so-called “gospels” that were not included. > > One reason they were not included is that they didn’t align with the teachings of the Apostles and their successors. It is not a wondrous bit of evidence that the basic tenets of Gospels align with one another, unless it is evidence that the New Testament was first edited for just that purpose. It is like pointing out the marvelousness of a bag full of just black marbles when the floor is littered with marbles of other colors that were not put in that same bag. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/146 "2018-12-28T20:32:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is not a wondrous bit of evidence that the basic tenets of Gospels align with one another, unless it is evidence that the New Testament was first edited for just that purpose. It is like pointing out the marvelousness of a bag full of just black marbles when the floor is littered with marbles of other colors that were not put in that same bag. So you are suggesting that prior to the canonization of the NT, the Gospels were edited in order to align with each other? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/147 "2018-12-28T20:39:12Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > So you are suggesting that prior to the canonization of the NT, the Gospels were edited in order to align with each other? That’s what you told me: > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > There are so-called “gospels” that were not included. > > One reason they were not included is that they didn’t align with the teachings of the Apostles and their successors. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/148 "2018-12-28T20:54:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s what you told me: I thought you were suggesting that the four canonized Gospels had been edited. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/149 "2018-12-28T20:59:26Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I thought you were suggesting that the four canonized Gospels had been edited. An editor also decides what stories to include in a collection. Your claim that the Gospels matching up in any way is evidence of anything is silly when you realize that any stories that _didn’t_ match up were cast aside. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/150 "2018-12-28T21:04:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > An editor also decides what stories to include in a collection. Your claim that the Gospels matching up in any way is evidence of anything is silly when you realize that any stories that _didn’t_ match up were cast aside. You don’t think the existence of four separate biographies that record many of the same key facts about a given subject is evidence of anything? I would suggest that it’s evidence that the subject existed, and that a group of people (the Church) believed certain things about him; namely that he was divine, and that he rose from the dead. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/151 "2018-12-28T21:13:51Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > You don’t think the existence of four separate biographies that record many of the same key facts about a given subject is evidence of anything? > > I would suggest that it’s evidence that the subject existed, and that a group of people (the Church) believed certain things about him; namely that he was divine, and that he rose from the dead. It is evidence that those stories were chosen _because_ they matched up in some ways. Four out of four matching in some ways isn’t amazing at all if we don’t know how many other books _weren’t_ included, and it is even less amazing when you see how much those four books _don’t_ match up. Edited to add: When I asked what people believed back before The NT was established, I mean _everyone_ that considered themselves some sort of Christian, and not just those you consider part of “The Church”. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/152 "2018-12-28T21:17:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is evidence that those stories were chosen _because_ they matched up in some ways. Four out of four matching in some ways isn’t amazing at all if we don’t know how many other books _weren’t_ included, and it is even less amazing when you see how much those four books _don’t_ match up. :rolleyes: So you believe in a conspiracy theory. If the establishment of the Catholic Church and the canonization of the New Testament were an organized conspiracy based on deception, I must say it was quite an impressive one. It’s true what they say. America is so Protestant, even the atheists are Protestant. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/153 "2018-12-28T21:22:00Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > :rolleyes: > > So you believe in a conspiracy theory. > > If the establishment of the Catholic Church and the canonization of the New Testament were an organized conspiracy based on deception, I must say it was quite an impressive one. > > It’s true what they say. America is so Protestant, even the atheists are Protestant. :rolleyes: No, not a “conspiracy theory”…but your disdain for sects other than you own is again noted. YOU said that books that didn’t match up were left out- > [@](#): > > There are so-called “gospels” that were not included. > > One reason they were not included is that they didn’t align with the teachings of the Apostles and their successors. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/154 "2018-12-28T21:22:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Edited to add: When I asked what people believed back before The NT was established, I mean _everyone_ that considered themselves some sort of Christian, and not just those you consider part of “The Church”. Do you have evidence that there was such a thing as a Christian outside the institutional Church? The idea that one can be a Christian while fully detached from the institutional Church is a very modern idea. Jesus and the Church were inseparable for the first 1600+ years of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/155 "2018-12-28T21:25:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > YOU said that books that didn’t match up were left out- That’s correct. Books were included in the canon if they aligned with Apostolic teaching. If they contradicted Apostolic teaching, they were thrown out. There has to be a standard by which to measure truth claims. In the Catholic Church, Apostolic teaching/tradition is the standard. Since the Bible was canonized, it has become a supplemental support to Apostolic tradition, but the Tradition always came first. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/156 "2018-12-28T21:35:12Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > That’s correct. Books were included in the canon if they aligned with Apostolic teaching. If they contradicted Apostolic teaching, they were thrown out. _Then they cannot be used for evidence that said Apostolic teachings are accurate._ ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/157 "2018-12-28T21:42:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Then they cannot be used for evidence that said Apostolic teachings are accurate._ But it’s not like the Gospels dropped out of a vacuum. They were in circulation in the churches along with Paul’s epistles. If the Apostles and their successors had seen anything objectionable in M, M, L, or J, they would not have made it into the canon. My point is that the Apostles and the writers of the Gospels did believe in the divinity and resurrection of Jesus. That seems obvious enough. The argument of whether the Apostles were right or wrong concerning these things is a different one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/158 "2018-12-28T21:49:04Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > But it’s not like the Gospels dropped out of a vacuum. They were in circulation in the churches along with Paul’s epistles. If the Apostles and their successors had seen anything objectionable in M, M, L, or J, they would not have made it into the canon. > > My point is that the Apostles and the writers of the Gospels did believe in the divinity and resurrection of Jesus. That seems obvious enough. > > The argument of whether the Apostles were right or wrong concerning these things is a different one. So all this time I was asking for evidence that what you believe is fact, what you instead provided was evidence that that people that believe as you do actually believe as you do? The fact that people believe something is not evidence that such a thing is real, no matter how much effort is made to keep the records clear of any contamination. I accept that the Catholic Church honestly believes what it believes. Do you accept that other sects honestly believe what _they_ believe? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/159 "2018-12-28T21:58:37Z")
Sorry I missed this **Fear Itself** > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because following the example of Jesus is hard, so theologians try to lawyer his words to make it easier. I will concede to that. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > For example, do you believe a wealthy man cannot enter the kingdom of heaven? Of course not, because you have been taught the “perfect man” loophole. Jesus didn’t say that it’s impossible, but exceedingly difficult (camel passing through the eye of a needle). That’s one hell of a purgatory, squeezing through that. Jesus said “be perfect”. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches today and always. You cannot enter heaven unless you are perfect. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Have you given away all that you own to follow him? Of course not, because you have been taught Jesus didn’t mean that _literally_. I believe that Jesus did mean it literally when he said it to the “rich young man”. Jesus demands different things from each of us, probably whatever is most difficult. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Following Jesus is hard, but people want eternal life anyway, so they create an interpretation that allows both. Well the Catholic Church is not doing a very good job then, because they do indeed demand perfection. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751/160 "2018-12-28T22:00:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you accept that other sects honestly believe what _they_ believe? Of course I do. I even accept that _you_ honestly believe what you do! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-early-christians-reconcile-divinity-of-the-bible-with-its-human-authors/826751.md?page=9)