# How Did French Become Soft and Melodious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 28, 2017, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205 "2017-03-28T11:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/1 "2017-03-28T11:16:01Z")
(This is a tough one. It involves language. I assume it goes in Cafe. Please correct me if I am wrong:).) > [@](#): > > …Old French [of this era] was primarily the language of a race of hardy warriors and farmers, uncouth and ill-mannered. The tongue was full of strong stresses, hard and full-mouthed sounds, and comparatively little phonetic grace. To a contemporary student of French who recognizes the language for its milk and honey articulation, this probably would have been a roguish speech. Its tones were more similar in rhythm to present-day English than to the softer cadences of modern French… Panati’s BROWSER BOOK OF BEGINNINGS ©1984 Charles Carroll Hudson, ISBN 0-395-56238-4 (pbk.) Okay, that is clearly how French began. But how did it become the sophisticated tongue of poets and philosophers? This book does not say. And I am surely not the only person who wants to know. :):):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/2 "2017-03-28T11:29:34Z")
The original raw language has rennet added to it, it’s then cast in a mold and drained of whey, removed from the mold and salted, then aged in a controlled environment. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/3 "2017-03-28T11:55:52Z")
What time period are we talking about and has any present day person actually heard or recorded this roguish version? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/4 "2017-03-28T12:00:56Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > What time period are we talking about and has any present day person actually heard or recorded this roguish version? Old French was spoken from the 9th century to the 14th century, and to my knowledge, only a couple of written forms of it have survived. I assume Mr. Hudson knows what he is talking about. And my opening question is largely based on his authority, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/5 "2017-03-28T12:02:56Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I assume it goes in Cafe. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/6 "2017-03-28T12:03:50Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Why? Literature, art, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/7 "2017-03-28T13:17:46Z")
My WAG: French is what happens when you take a normal language and then have really drunk people try to speak it. ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/8 "2017-03-28T13:36:22Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Old French was spoken from the 9th century to the 14th century, and to my knowledge, only a couple of written forms of it have survived. > > I assume Mr. Hudson knows what he is talking about. And my opening question is largely based on his authority, I guess. The end of that period is about when the great vowel shift happened in English. My WAG is that something similar happened to French. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/9 "2017-03-28T13:56:11Z")
I know it is supposed to sound mellifluous and graceful, and indeed I think it is _when sung_, but to my American ears it sounds nasal, which is how schoolyard kids often do hostile mockery, and many of the vowel sounds are also reminiscent of sounds kids make to convey disgust and contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/10 "2017-03-28T14:18:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > My WAG: French is what happens when you take a normal language and then have really drunk people try to speak it. My command of spoken French increases exponentially with every drink taken. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/11 "2017-03-28T20:06:32Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > My WAG: French is what happens when you take a normal language and then have really drunk people try to speak it. To me French sounds like it’s spoken by someone with bad sinus problems. It sure does sound romantic though. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/12 "2017-03-28T20:22:18Z")
Most "n"s in French are very nasal, particularly when preceded by a vowel. The French “r” is the sound of hacking up phlegm. I don’t think it’s an “ugly” language at all, but I’ve never considered it “pretty.” When anybody suggests that it is beautiful, I always think of the Merovingian in the Matrix sequel who says vulgar things and “it’s like wiping your arse with silk.” I think the drunk language is Danish. At least according to Norwegians. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/13 "2017-03-28T22:43:08Z")
[Moderating] > [@](#): > > (This is a tough one. It involves language. I assume it goes in Cafe. Please correct me if I am wrong.) I see what you mean. I found myself saying “Well, yeah, I guess I can see why that would be CS, because…”. But then I was unable to finish that sentence. So, off to GQ. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/14 "2017-03-28T22:54:38Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > My command of spoken French increases exponentially with every drink taken. What a coincidence - mine does too. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/15 "2017-03-28T23:19:12Z")
There’s a fair amount of bias involved with the claim that modern French is “melodious and sophisticated.” I suggest some historical observations: various languages have, to this day, been associated with something positive or something negative, in a more or less faddish way. Latin came to be admired long after the empire that spoke it was wiped away (it’s now officially a dead language), primarily because even the staunch enemies of Rome, admired it’s conquests and grand engineering feats. French similarly came to be admired, because the French came to be the most powerful nation in Europe for a long time, and again, people admire the powerful even as they hate or fear them. It is said that even as Napoleon’s Grande Armie was marching into Russia, that the Emperor of Russia insisted that everyone at court, speak French. ``` After world war 2 especially, the United States promoted French as the language of love, out of some sort of post-war affection, and because a lot of Americans came home with French brides. ``` For myself, I think of French as the language of the lazy and snotty. Because in addition to looking down their long noses at Americans (at least in Paris), a French speaker can’t make it through a single sentence, without dropping the ends of half the words he pretends to be saying. One thing I did notice, that might explain at least SOME of the idea that French is the language of romance, is that a lot of French words end in sounds that require the speaker to purse their lips as if to kiss you. And if it’s a cure woman saying them, even when you have no idea what she said, that could easily make a guy think “this country is MADE for love!” Oh. And notice that there’s also a snobby CLASS WARFARE aspect to this. Just as in Britain, there is a disdain amongst the upper classes for their “lessers,” and the upper classes have purposely taught themselves to speak differently from the lower classes as a part of making the class differences clear, so too the French aristocracy altered how THEY spoke, AND declared that the lower classes were speaking crudely and roughly. It’s entirely possible that the old French being referred to, was really just pre-aristocracy French, and didn’t sounds all that different. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/16 "2017-03-28T23:34:12Z")
“I speak Spanish to God, Italian to Women, French to Men, and German to my Horse.” (Mis)attributed to Charles V, HRE. Not quite fitting the stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/17 "2017-03-28T23:37:43Z")
> [@JacobSwan](#): > > The end of that period is about when the great vowel shift happened in English. My WAG is that something similar happened to French. No, there was no such massive change in French. It was a much progressive process. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/18 "2017-03-29T00:24:51Z")
I think the overall feel of a language depends a lot on what your native language is. To many English speakers, German seems harsh, Thai seems whiny, etc. but to their native speakers they certainly don’t seem that way. And I imagine to native speakers of other languages unrelated to English, those languages may have an entirely different feel. FWIW, French certainly doesn’t seem soft and melodious to me. > [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > a French speaker can’t make it through a single sentence, without dropping the ends of half the words he pretends to be saying. This is an issue about French spelling, not pronunciation. One might just as well fault English speakers for not pronouncing half the letters in their words. ---
**Author:** ![TYphoonSignal8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/19 "2017-03-29T00:47:58Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Oh. And notice that there’s also a snobby CLASS WARFARE aspect to this. Just as in Britain, there is a disdain amongst the upper classes for their “lessers,” and the upper classes have purposely taught themselves to speak differently from the lower classes as a part of making the class differences clear, so too the French aristocracy altered how THEY spoke, AND declared that the lower classes were speaking crudely and roughly. It’s entirely possible that the old French being referred to, was really just pre-aristocracy French, and didn’t sounds all that different. There is a linguistic root to this: High English and Low English. Do you “observe” (High English, based on Norman French) or do you “see” (Low English, Anglo-Saxon)? Similarly, do you “procure” or do you “get”? There is a very insightful article on this topic in The Economist but I can’t seem to find it… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/20 "2017-03-29T00:53:34Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > … > a French speaker can’t make it through a single sentence, without dropping the ends of half the words he pretends to be saying. … I agree with the linguistics of your overall post, although I’d apply a lot less judgmental vitriole. Ref the snipped part above, surely you’ve heard the people from US Appalachia or the Deep South, where every word consists of the initial consonant and “əh” or “uh”. That’s it. It’s too hot, too humid, and they’re too friggin lazy, to say any more nor to enunciate what little they did say. “ləhvuhkuh” is the proper native pronunciation of “Louisville, Kentucky”. The French are careful complete enunciators by comparison. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205.md?page=2)