# How Did French Become Soft and Melodious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 28, 2017, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205 "2017-03-28T11:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/21 "2017-03-29T08:54:43Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > … I think of French as the language of the lazy and snotty. Because in addition to looking down their long noses at Americans (at least in Paris), a French speaker can’t make it through a single sentence, without dropping the ends of half the words he pretends to be saying. > [@markn\_1](#): > > … > This is an issue about French spelling, not pronunciation. One might just as well fault English speakers for not pronouncing half the letters in their words. Exactly. Take this basic French word : “through”. 7 letters but only 3 sounds. Where did the other 4 go ? So lazy :rolleyes: . As far as “looking down their long noses at Americans”, the reverse is most definitely true, too. What was that again ? _Cheese-eating surrender monkeys_, right ? And for the record, I know the origin of the phrase. > [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Oh. And notice that there’s also a snobby CLASS WARFARE aspect to this. Just as in Britain, there is a disdain amongst the upper classes for their “lessers,” and the upper classes have purposely taught themselves to speak differently from the lower classes as a part of making the class differences clear, so too the French aristocracy altered how THEY spoke, AND declared that the lower classes were speaking crudely and roughly. It’s entirely possible that the old French being referred to, was really just pre-aristocracy French, and didn’t sounds all that different. I really have no idea what you’re talking about here. There are many different accents in French, some considered “nicer-sounding”, “sunnier” or even more “educated” than others but there’s absolutely no parallel to the prestige norm set by Received Pronunciation, Queen’s English, Oxford English, BBC English or whatever you call it. Even Parisian French isn’t considered particularly prestigious. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/22 "2017-03-29T08:59:51Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > “I speak Spanish to God, Italian to Women, French to Men, and German to my Horse.” > (Mis)attributed to Charles V, HRE. Not quite fitting the stereotype. Other versions: I speak Latin with God, Italian with musicians, Spanish with the ladies, French at court, German with the servants and English with my horses. I speak Italian with ambassadors, French with women, German with soldiers, English with horses and Spanish with God. One should speak Spanish with God, Italian with a woman-friend, French with male friends, German with soldiers, English with ducks, Hungarian with horses and Bohemian with the Devil. Spanish for my troops, French for women and German for my horse. French is the language of love, Italian that of politics and Spanish the one you speak with God. ---
**Author:** ![dave\_s\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@dave\_s\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dave_s_1)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/23 "2017-03-29T09:13:28Z")
You might be interested by the curious case of the French spoken in Quebec. They have retained/fostered/forced the continuing use of a much older dialect of French than is spoken in France, closer to that of the time of the arrival of Europeans in what is now Canada. By all accounts, this is much less easy on the ear - much more throaty, nasally and generally rough around the edges. They also use some vocabulary which hasn’t been used in France for generations - even the Academie Francaise in Paris (aka language police) considers it antiquated. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/24 "2017-03-29T09:38:31Z")
> [@dave\_s](#): > > They also use some vocabulary which hasn’t been used in France for generations - even the Academie Francaise in Paris (aka language police) considers it antiquated. That’s true of Spanish as well; each dialect seems to have retained some words or expressions which sound antiquated to everybody else and which may even be labeled “_ant._” or “_obs._” by DRAE. And in English, I know that a lot of expressions used in India or South Africa are viewed as old-fashioned by Brits or Americans and some US dialects sound old-fashioned to other American speakers; I suspect that a good comparative analysis would find a situation similar to that of Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/25 "2017-03-29T09:48:17Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > As far as “looking down their long noses at Americans”, the reverse is most definitely true, too. What was that again ? _Cheese-eating surrender monkeys_, right ? And for the record, I know the origin of the phrase. American disdain for the French is inherited from the British, who have historically taken it to an art form. Also freedom fries hasn’t stuck in the language, whereas terms like Great Dane have stuck (nothing to do with Denmark, lots to do with Germany). > [@dave\_s](#): > > You might be interested by the curious case of the French spoken in Quebec. They have retained/fostered/forced the continuing use of a much older dialect of French than is spoken in France, closer to that of the time of the arrival of Europeans in what is now Canada. Also the most conservative English dialect is generally considered to be in Virginia. UK English in any dialect has changed much since the revolutionary war. Tabernac! ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/26 "2017-03-29T10:40:43Z")
I think this might be a matter of opinion. A friend of mine and I have been arguing for years about which languages sound good, and we mostly agree, except that I think French, spoken by the people who know how to speak it, sounds nasal and horrible, but that Spanish sounds melodious. She thinks just the opposite. Interestingly enough, her grandparents were Spanish, and her grandmother scared her when she was young. At some point when very young, and not for long, I apparently had a French au pair. I don’t remember her scaring me (in fact I don’t remember her at all; I remember a German woman but not the French one) but maybe these experiences of our extreme youth prejudiced us against these languages, somehow. But anyway. French to me, when I’m not trying to make sense out of it, sounds awfully nasal. And Spanish sounds lilting. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/27 "2017-03-29T10:54:58Z")
Well, being a native French speaker (but NOT French !), I have a hard time hearing it as pure sound, it automatically morphs into “meaning”\*. So the idea that it’s supposed to be “soft and melodious” is lost on me. To me, Italian is soft and melodious. Kind of dramatic, too. Spanish, however, I find grating (sorry **Nava** :o). Portugese is weird, like Spanish spoken by a Pole. Romanian is also strange but in a cute way. I think of it as Italian with unusual sounds. I love English, of course but, like French, I hear words, not sounds (well, _mostly_). German is great, too, including in poetry. It sounds majestic and noble. Dutch is like boneless German. I’m also partial to the sublime monotony of Finnish prosody. \*Except Canadian French. Then, unless it’s the news or some official speaking, all bets are off. I actually find Canadian English much easier to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/28 "2017-03-29T15:53:43Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > a French speaker can’t make it through a single sentence, without dropping the ends of half the words he pretends to be saying. That’s Paris-speak. Down south it’s the opposite, they add vowels where there ain’t supposed to be any. And up north it gets downright… [_weird_](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%27ti_(linguistique)). ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/29 "2017-03-29T16:04:39Z")
> [@dave\_s](#): > > You might be interested by the curious case of the French spoken in Quebec. They have retained/fostered/forced the continuing use of a much older dialect of French than is spoken in France, closer to that of the time of the arrival of Europeans in what is now Canada. > > By all accounts, this is much less easy on the ear - much more throaty, nasally and generally rough around the edges. They also use some vocabulary which hasn’t been used in France for generations - even the Academie Francaise in Paris (aka language police) considers it antiquated. There’s an urban/international accent, and then there’s the rural/low class/wooden-tongued accent. (That’s the term Quebecers use: langue de bois) One is clear and crisp and used on TV and radio. The other is used in the street and is nigh-incomprehensible to those who haven’t learned its specific patois (called joual). Suffice it to say there is a range of accents in _any_ language, and it seems evident the author cited in the OP is referring to what was said by soldiers and farmers – who are, in every language and culture I’ve encountered, generally perceived and dismissed by the upper classes as uncouth. ---
**Author:** ![TYphoonSignal8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/30 "2017-03-30T09:03:16Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Other versions: > > I speak Latin with God, Italian with musicians, Spanish with the ladies, French at court, German with the servants and English with my horses. > I speak Italian with ambassadors, French with women, German with soldiers, English with horses and Spanish with God. > One should speak Spanish with God, Italian with a woman-friend, French with male friends, German with soldiers, English with ducks, Hungarian with horses and Bohemian with the Devil. > Spanish for my troops, French for women and German for my horse. > French is the language of love, Italian that of politics and Spanish the one you speak with God. Very nice. > [@](#): > > And in English, I know that a lot of expressions used in India or South Africa are viewed as old-fashioned by Brits or Americans and some US dialects sound old-fashioned to other American speakers; This is really off-topic, but as an Australian I use words which some Americans would find archaic or, at best, provincial: “fortnight”, “reckon”, “sook” all leap to mind. Queenslanders use “port” as a synonym for “luggage”, which I’m guessing is archaic, or an import from the Channel Islands or the Cornish language, or both. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/31 "2017-03-30T10:20:51Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > \*Except Canadian French. Then, unless it’s the news or some official speaking, all bets are off. I actually find Canadian English much easier to understand. Those who speak it would be appalled to hear it referred to as “Canadian French”. It’s Quebec French! 😉 But, yes, Quebec French has developed differences from the language spoken in France, some but not all of which arises from the inevitable blending with English. In urban areas like Montreal the degree of bilingualism is amazing and is essentially universal, so cross-pollination is inevitable. But just like France, Quebec has instituted official powers that have stepped up the battle to preserve the “purity” of the language. No one seems as keen to guard their linguistic heritage as the French, no matter where they are. Canadian English is more or less American English with certain words (mostly the “ou” words like colour and flavour) spelled correctly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/32 "2017-03-30T11:10:53Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Those who speak it would be appalled to hear it referred to as “Canadian French”. It’s Quebec French! 😉 But, yes, Quebec French has developed differences from the language spoken in France, some but not all of which arises from the inevitable blending with English. In urban areas like Montreal the degree of bilingualism is amazing and is essentially universal, so cross-pollination is inevitable. But just like France, Quebec has instituted official powers that have stepped up the battle to preserve the “purity” of the language. No one seems as keen to guard their linguistic heritage as the French, no matter where they are. Thanks. I was vaguely aware of making some sort of faux-pas here, but I had forgotten how to spell kebéqwa :D. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/33 "2017-03-30T17:42:42Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > There’s an urban/international accent, and then there’s the rural/low class/wooden-tongued accent. (That’s the term Quebecers use: langue de bois) > > One is clear and crisp and used on TV and radio. The other is used in the street and is nigh-incomprehensible to those who haven’t learned its specific patois (called joual). > Suffice it to say there is a range of accents in _any_ language, and it seems evident the author cited in the OP is referring to what was said by soldiers and farmers – who are, in every language and culture I’ve encountered, generally perceived and dismissed by the upper classes as uncouth. Once in college my friend and I were watching TV when we caught a Québécois policeman being interviewed in French about some case. My friend was a Parisian. He just about fell on the floor laughing at the thick accent. Since I had once lived in Montreal, I was used to it so I didn’t understand what was so funny. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/34 "2017-03-30T21:52:41Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > \*Except Canadian French. Then, unless it’s the news or some official speaking, all bets are off. I actually find Canadian English much easier to understand. There are a lot of variations. Some French Canadians are very easy to understand, some…not so much. I suspect it’s regional. The worst by far is Cajun French. I remember switching to some channel and randomly finding some documentary. I listened for a while to the guy they were interviewing (with subtitles), without realizing before the end that he was speaking “French”. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/35 "2017-03-30T21:58:29Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Once in college my friend and I were watching TV when we caught a Québécois policeman being interviewed in French about some case. My friend was a Parisian. He just about fell on the floor laughing at the thick accent. Since I had once lived in Montreal, I was used to it so I didn’t understand what was so funny. For some reason Canadian French sounds funny to many people (me included). Regardless of what the topic is, it sounds like a stand up comedy. I knew a guy from Quebec living in Paris who had this routine where he would tell a story, exagerating his accent a bit, and packing as many Quebec-specific words he could in the story, making it totally unintelligible but completely hilarious for the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/36 "2017-03-30T22:35:39Z")
I remember one time, I was watching a movie set in Montreal. Since I only know middle-school French, I was of course watching it in English subtitles. But there’s one scene that takes place in a hospital, where one of the main characters is talking to the doctors in English. And that scene, of course, was subtitled into French, for the benefit of the original francophone audience. The actress’s accent was so horrendous that even with my very limited command of French, I still found it easier to read the French subtitles than to listen to the English. > [@](#): > > Quoth **igor frankensteen** : > > Latin came to be admired long after the empire that spoke it was wiped away (it’s now officially a dead language)… No, Etruscan is a dead language. Latin is not, and will not be at any time in the foreseeable future. It’s a dormant language, in that nobody speaks it as a first language, but there are still plenty of people who know it. Its situation is comparable to that of Hebrew, before its adoption by the modern state of Israel, and it seems misplaced to say that a language that was once dead is now alive again. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/37 "2017-03-30T22:56:41Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > For some reason Canadian French sounds funny to many people (me included). Regardless of what the topic is, it sounds like a stand up comedy. I’ve tended to think so, too, but I’ve associated it with the way French in general sometimes sounds to English speakers. I mean, come on, [these guys](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0wvGiAH9g) [_YouTube video - the French taunters in Monty Python and the Holy Grail_] weren’t from Quebec! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/38 "2017-03-31T01:34:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > There are a lot of variations. Some French Canadians are very easy to understand, some…not so much. I suspect it’s regional. > > The worst by far is Cajun French. I remember switching to some channel and randomly finding some documentary. I listened for a while to the guy they were interviewing (with subtitles), without realizing before the end that he was speaking “French”. I remember some Cops-type show taking place in Louisiana. The guy was speaking English and almost certainly monolingual, but needed subtitles. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2017, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/39 "2017-03-31T02:22:03Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Once in college my friend and I were watching TV when we caught a Québécois policeman being interviewed in French about some case. My friend was a Parisian. He just about fell on the floor laughing at the thick accent. Since I had once lived in Montreal, I was used to it so I didn’t understand what was so funny. And I remember staying at a B&B in Montreal, listening to the owner complain about the unintelligible French spoken by a recent guest visiting from Paris. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205/40 "2017-03-31T13:17:22Z")
My aged MIL is of Italian heritage. She was born in the US shortly after her parents came over from Italy as young adults. They spoke English, but not real well. She was raised in a dense Italian immigrant community and spoke both languages as a child. Fast forward 60 years and she finally saves up the money to visit the Old Country. And comes back regaling us with tales of how badly those people spoke Italian. Gee Mom, you don’t suppose it’s you, do you? Naaah, I didn’t think so. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-french-become-soft-and-melodious/783205.md?page=3)