# How did Gandalf plan on getting into Mordor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 28, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793 "2010-01-28T18:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/81 "2010-01-30T01:42:22Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I have a hard time believing that Gandalf could slip into Mordor unnoticed and get all the way to Mount Doom. Or that he’d willingly take Isildur’s Heir along for the ride. I don’t think he intended for the entire group to get beyond Lothlorien. If only there were a way Gandalf could become invisible and then get all the way to Mount Doom. If only there were some kind of magical talisman… I like the eagles as carrier pigeons–we would have had a much different story, but who’s to say it wouldn’t have been a better one? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/82 "2010-01-30T01:46:50Z")
Oh eleanorigby I know you must be joking. Long before Gandalf got invisibly to Mordor he would have challenged Sauron as Lord of the Ring. as for the eagles - they don’t like to get directly involved. long, long flight from Rivendell carrying a passenger w/ ring eagles might have been tempted by ring. entry to Crack of Doom tricksy for big eagle Sauron would have espied eagle & shot him down etc. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/83 "2010-01-30T01:52:03Z")
If Gandalf doesn’t bring Peregrin Took along, Faramir dies, and possibly Minas Tirith ends up in some serious trouble. If Gandalf doesn’t bring Meridoc Brandybuck along, the Witchking kills Eowyn, mops up the battlefield, and says some uncomplimentary things to Aragorn about what he intends to do with Eowyn when he gets his chance. The hobbits HAD to come along; it was fate/karma/Providence. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/84 "2010-01-30T02:00:01Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > the Witchking kills Eowyn, mops up the battlefield, and says some uncomplimentary things to Aragorn about what he intends to do with Eowyn when he gets his chance. You mean _after_ she’s dead? Those Nazgul are worse than I thought. :eek: Sure, we can assume all that, but then again I could reply with: If Glorfindel goes, he puts some magical elvish sword through the Witch King as soon as the Witch King pops his head through the broken front door of Minas Tirith, and the tide of battle turns earlier, and Theoden doesn’t get killed. If Pippin doesn’t go, then the palantir of Orthanc falls into a hole, Aragorn can’t use it to challenge Sauron, Sauron waits a few more days to march into battle against Minas Tirith, Rohan has time to arrive before the battle starts, help Faramir escape from Osgiliath, and Faramir doesn’t get wounded. I know Merry and Pippin did something worthwhile, and if they’re not part of The Company it’s not the story that Tolkien wanted to tell, but if I were Gandalf I would have told Tolkien to cram it and brought Glorfindel along anyway. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/85 "2010-01-30T02:00:33Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Malacandra - Does this mean we have to discuss Harry Potter endlessly from now on instead? No, Thomas Covenant. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/86 "2010-01-30T02:05:16Z")
agreed. all the hobbits played their parts. The hobbits are what made this story special. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/87 "2010-01-30T02:36:10Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > If only there were a way Gandalf could become invisible and then get all the way to Mount Doom. If only there were some kind of magical talisman… I think the deal is that when you wear the ring you become visible to Sauron. I also seem to remember that Gandalf would have been tempted had he worn the ring. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/88 "2010-01-30T04:47:24Z")
I agree that Gandalf was mostly hoping for the best, looking to exploit opportunities as they arose. I don’t think he had the entire quest planned out when the Fellowship departed Rivendell (on Dec. 25, incidentally), since he knew the tactical situation was fluid, to say the least. Gollum didn’t escape from Mordor, as such; Sauron released him on purpose, IIRC, knowing he would seek out B. Baggins, Esq. Elrond was Gil-Galad’s herald. Exactly what that role entailed is unclear - probably a mix of advisor, military ADC, liaison to Elendil and the Numenoreans, and diplomat to any other folk encountered along the way. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/89 "2010-01-30T06:30:01Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > What was stopping Gandalf, Radagast and everyone else from charging in on the giant eagles. > > Imagine - flying over the mountains - then diving down to the volcano’s opening and dropping in the ring (optionally with hobbit attached). The whole operation would be over quick enough. > > The eagles are willing to help (as per the War of the 5 Armies, their rescue of Gandalf from the tower). They showed they were able to get to Mt. Doom when they rescued Frodo/Sam right after the deed was done. How could Sauron have stopped them. Granted, the flying Nazgul would be a potential problem - but the eagles outnumbered them and could have heroes like Gandalf and Legolas shooting long range projectiles. I posted this in an earlier thread, but I can’t say it any better than I did then. One of the major themes of LOTR is that the days of the Elves are ending and the world is transitioning to becoming a world of Men. Sauron is the last enemy of the old world and if Men (read=Humans) are going to be deemed worthy of inheriting the world then they need to stand up and defeat this enemy on their own. Hobbits are basically Men, but so unambitious that they never really contributed much to the world (their greatest claim to fame is coming up with the idea of smoking the tobacco-like Pipeweed). There’s actually a running gag in the books that while some of the world had heard of Hobbits, none had any tales or songs of them. Since the Ring(s) basically amplifies the nature of the user, Hobbits are uniquely suited in that they have no ambition for the Ring to corrupt. **The Eagles, as direct links to the Valar, could not help since it would defeat the entire purpose of letting Men _earn_ their dominion. Them coming to rescue the Hobbits at the climax can be looked at as divine acknowledgment of their success.** ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/90 "2010-01-30T07:46:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You know, that’s an excellent point : I remember Gandalf saying something along the lines of Gollum “still having his part to play” as a reason why he didn’t simply off him instead of leaving him with the elves. Maybe he expected Gollum would wind up finding the Fellowship down the line (drawn to the Ring and all that), at which point he could have done what Frodo and Sam did : make him lead the way. Better do it this way than lug him all the way from Rivendell and give him Eru knows how many opportunities to screw them over. > > Or maybe Gollum had already told him about the path, possibly without mentioning Shelob but c’mon, Gandalf iced a _balrog_. A big bug ain’t gonna slow him down. Especially one that’s intimidated by a magic flashlight. Shelob’s mommy, Ungoliant personally kicked Morgoth’s ass. Had Gandalf known Shelob’s exact nature and origin, he might not have attempted the pass. As it was, she was a paper spider and Sam Gamgee squished her. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/91 "2010-01-30T07:56:10Z")
It’s not only that, but I don’t think the eagles could have got in, what with the Nazgul and Sauron being able to focus fully upon them. It’s pretty clear to me the only reason the eagles got far enough in to rescue Frodo is that Sauron and the remaining 8 Nazgul were fully focused upon Frodo. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/92 "2010-01-30T09:17:41Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > I posted this in an earlier thread, but I can’t say it any better than I did then. > > One of the major themes of LOTR is that the days of the Elves are ending and the world is transitioning to becoming a world of Men. Sauron is the last enemy of the old world and if Men (read=Humans) are going to be deemed worthy of inheriting the world then they need to stand up and defeat this enemy on their own. Hobbits are basically Men, but so unambitious that they never really contributed much to the world (their greatest claim to fame is coming up with the idea of smoking the tobacco-like Pipeweed). There’s actually a running gag in the books that while some of the world had heard of Hobbits, none had any tales or songs of them. Since the Ring(s) basically amplifies the nature of the user, Hobbits are uniquely suited in that they have no ambition for the Ring to corrupt. **The Eagles, as direct links to the Valar, could not help since it would defeat the entire purpose of letting Men _earn_ their dominion. Them coming to rescue the Hobbits at the climax can be looked at as divine acknowledgment of their success.** But sending - and resurrecting - an Ainur doesn’t qualify as outside help? If an Ainur, why not the eagles? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/93 "2010-01-30T09:25:14Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I understand that Gandalf was one lucky SOB and everything worked out all right, and I know that this has been discussed umpteenth times before, but I still think it was stupid to bring Merry and Pippin along instead of someone like Glorfindel. The only reason they state is that “since it’s impossible to get into Mordor anyway, what’s the point of taking someone like Glorfindel instead of a couple more hobbits.” What? How does that make sense? Glorfindel sure would have been more useful in Moria than Pippin. For one thing he wouldn’t have been dumb enough to start throwing rocks into deep holes and waking up Balrogs. Come on! Glorfindel can make Nazgul wet their pants and run away! This is a guy you want to take with you. …if you want a giant white arrow labelled “Here they are!” pointing at the Fellowship every inch from Rivendell to Mount Doom. The Council were quite clear that Glorfindel, mighty as he was, couldn’t blast his way in by might and main, and he would ruin all hope of subterfuge. And yes, Gandalf not only couldn’t have crept into Mordor wearing the Ring - Sauron nearly spotted Frodo as far away as Amon Hen - but would have been irresistibly tempted to use the Ring for good, just once. And again. And again. And again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again… He could almost certainly have overthrown Sauron, but Middle-Earth would have had a new Ringlord with even less likelihood that he could be overthrown in his turn. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/94 "2010-01-30T10:03:10Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Shelob’s mommy, Ungoliant personally kicked Morgoth’s ass. Had Gandalf known Shelob’s exact nature and origin, he might not have attempted the pass. As it was, she was a paper spider and Sam Gamgee squished her. She did not die. Also, Sting was no ordinary sword, and Sam got lucky. ---
**Author:** ![vifslan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f4b2a3/32.png) [@vifslan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vifslan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/95 "2010-01-30T10:05:57Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > If Pippin doesn’t go, then the palantir of Orthanc falls into a hole, Aragorn can’t use it to challenge Sauron, Sauron waits a few more days to march into battle against Minas Tirith, Rohan has time to arrive before the battle starts, help Faramir escape from Osgiliath, and Faramir doesn’t get wounded. If Aragorn doesn’t challenge Sauron, Sauron doesn’t fly into a panic and kick off a premature offensive. Instead, he sits tight and keeps the entire Gorgoroth teeming with Orcs and the border guard unweakened, with the result that the watchforce at Cirith Ungol reports the presence of two spies. And would you just look at what one of them keeps in his pocketses. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/96 "2010-01-30T14:40:42Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > But sending - and resurrecting - an Ainur doesn’t qualify as outside help? If an Ainur, why not the eagles? But Gandalf didn’t just swoop in and solve the problem by himself as an ultrapowerful badass Ainur. He did what he had done before – inspire, cajole, organize, and point the right people in the right direction – just with more personal power at his disposal. On a side note, try saying ‘personal power at his disposal’ 5 times fast without showering the people sitting across from you. The Eagles only got involved at the extreme end and only acted to save the Ringbearers after they had Done Their Thing, which is as far as Divine Will would go to affect events without overriding free will. The Eagles are messengers of the gods, not a divine Delta Force. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/97 "2010-01-30T16:57:21Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > But sending - and resurrecting - an Ainur doesn’t qualify as outside help? If an Ainur, why not the eagles? He was sent in an “advisory capacity.” Kind of like when you are teaching your kid to ride a bike without training wheels for the first time. You hold him steady and then when it’s time, you let go. As has been mentioned, Gandalf and the other wizards were specifically forbidden from using their powers to help. They were sent in human form (but unaging) to limit their power and also so they could easier relate to the inhabitants of Middle-earth. Gandalf’s primary purpose was to inspire men to reach their potential. This is illustrated best in his help of Theoden (who wasn’t possessed in the books like he was in the movies) among others. Gandalf carries a staff, like a shepherd, in a bit of obvious symbolism. Even his Ring of Power was the Red Ring of Fire, to “fire up the hearts of Men.” Gandalf was the only wizard that kept to the mission, though. Saruman became enamored with power, Radagast went “native” and only cared about the animals. The other two wizards went into the East and were never heard from again. Tolkien assumed they were either killed or started up cults of their own outside the reckoning of the West. LOTR is almost Biblical in its focus on a relatively narrow part of the World. Wikipedia actually has a good paragraph about it in the Wizards page. “Though the Valar intervened only rarely in Middle-earth, they sent the wizards as emissaries from Valinor because they had not forsaken the faithful Men and Elves of Middle-earth. In imposing the prohibition against using force to compel the Children of Eru, the Valar sought with the wizards to avoid repeating an ancient error. They had tried direct intervention in the destiny of the Elves in the Years of the Trees by leading the Eldar into the West, but this resulted in many bloody wars and confrontations. In the struggle against the Dark Lord, they hoped instead to help Men achieve their own destiny. Thus Gandalf and the other wizards were meant to use their great wisdom to persuade Men to courses of action which would achieve Men’s own goals, rather than trying to dominate them. Saruman failed in this when he tried to set himself up as a commander in opposition to Sauron, but Gandalf remained faithful to his charge.” ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/98 "2010-01-31T07:38:23Z")
Dead simple. Walk up to the front gates, approach the Orcs guarding the show and make a mysterious hand pass, saying “These are not the hobbits you are looking for”. Orc replies “These are not the hobbits we are looking for”, and moves on. Lather, rinse, repeat all the way through Mordor and within a couple of days they’re all sitting around the pool at the Mt Doom Hilton wearing Bermuda shorts and shades, drinking cocktails out of coconuts, poking random Balrog corpses with a stick and mooning The Eye for shits and giggles. Gandalf getting his dopey ass killed kinda put a hole in the plan, but. Had to do it the hard way after that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/99 "2010-01-31T08:23:32Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Erm. The reason he didn’t “simply off him” is that that’s NOT WHAT THE HEROES DO in LotR. Gollum is snivelling and miserable and wretched and wicked, but that’s not enough for Frodo, Bilbo, Aragorn, Faramir or ESPECIALLY NOT GANDALF to _kill_ him. Particularly not in cold blood. Not the point. Gandalf did chastise Frodo about wanting to kill Gollum, explaining that this is not how the free world rolls (“PITY ? It was pity that stayed Bilbo’s sword in the first place !”). But he also mused that, on top of the mercy angle, he felt that Gollum still had a part to play, and that’s significant. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/100 "2010-01-31T16:26:08Z")
“It’s a pity I’ve run out of bullets.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793.md?page=6)