# How did Gandalf plan on getting into Mordor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 28, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793 "2010-01-28T18:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/101 "2010-02-01T18:15:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not the point. Gandalf did chastise Frodo about wanting to kill Gollum, explaining that this is not how the free world rolls (“PITY ? It was pity that stayed Bilbo’s sword in the first place !”). But he also mused that, on top of the mercy angle, he felt that Gollum still had a part to play, and that’s significant. I think you have it backwards. Still. Gandalf didn’t kill him because Gandalf didn’t _want_ to kill him. The fact that he’s “important” is beside the point. If you are opposed to murdering people, then you don’t need someone to be important in order to not murder them. Yes, Gandalf felt Gollum still “had some part to play” but that is not why he didn’t kill him. That’s all. Other questions are already covered: Glorfindel is a great big shining light. Bring him close to Mordor and watch everything come down on your head. Similarly, how well does an eagle airdrop work when Mordor is crawling with orcs and 10,000 of them are crowding the slopes of mount doom and aiming crossbows at the eagles? The area was empty of troops because they had been sent off to fight in a hurry. All the combat in LotR? It’s a diversion, and a necessary one. If Sauron sits on his haunches and waits for the Ring to come to him, he wins. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/102 "2010-02-01T19:03:51Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > …if you want a giant white arrow labelled “Here they are!” pointing at the Fellowship every inch from Rivendell to Mount Doom. The Council were quite clear that Glorfindel, mighty as he was, couldn’t blast his way in by might and main, and he would ruin all hope of subterfuge. > [@Airk](#): > > Other questions are already covered: Glorfindel is a great big shining light. Bring him close to Mordor and watch everything come down on your head. If Glorfinder is a great big shining light, then bringing Gandalf along must be like constantly blazing the Bat Signal above your head! I don’t think this reason really applies. > [@vifslan](#): > > If Aragorn doesn’t challenge Sauron, Sauron doesn’t fly into a panic and kick off a premature offensive. Instead, he sits tight and keeps the entire Gorgoroth teeming with Orcs and the border guard unweakened, with the result that the watchforce at Cirith Ungol reports the presence of two spies. And would you just look at what one of them keeps in his pocketses. Sure, if we start playing what ifs anything can happen. My point is that you can’t predict the future, and Gandalf didn’t know what the sequence of events was going to be. I understand that Tolkien wanted to show the small forgotten people doing their part and becoming heroes. But if this was “real life” it would be silly not to bring along someone like Glorfindel. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/103 "2010-02-01T21:09:25Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > If Glorfinder is a great big shining light, then bringing Gandalf along must be like constantly blazing the Bat Signal above your head! I don’t think this reason really applies. Why not? Who’s to say the Wizard isn’t better at concealing himself (well enough to sneak into Dol Guldur while Sauron was in residence!) than the Elf Lord? Seriously. I don’t think this is even a valid comparison. > [@](#): > > I understand that Tolkien wanted to show the small forgotten people doing their part and becoming heroes. But if this was “real life” it would be silly not to bring along someone like Glorfindel. Unless, say, that was the equivalent of taking a tank on a recon mission. Sure, it’s great to have a tank, until the badguys hear you coming a mile away and have a nice cluster of anti tank weaponry waiting when you arrive. I don’t really see why this is such a sticking point. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/104 "2010-02-01T22:40:41Z")
Gandalf does lament, when he lights the fire on the pass of Caradhas, that he’s just put up a big sign for anyone to see that says “Gandalf is here”. But the fact that lighting the fire is such a sign rather implies that he isn’t _normally_ putting up such a sign, when he’s not doing things of that sort. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/105 "2010-02-02T22:33:59Z")
I don’t mean to belabour the point, but I feel compelled to throw in one last post. Of course, you can try and use logic to defend the decision (Glorfindel would draw too much attention to the Company, whereas Gandalf, who is much more powerful, would not, because [insert plausible explanation here]). The explanation given in the book is “I vaguely sense that Pippin and Merry may have something important to contribute on our Quest”, which in the LOTR world is as good a reason as any. This talent of foresight is, IMHO, too often used (in The Silmarillion in particular) as a plot device: “I don’t need to do X / should do X because I foresee a great future for Y or some terrible events surrounding Z.” Being a Man, never having seen the light of the Trees or the Blessed Realm, not blessed with Half-Elven ancestors, and therefore incapable of divining the future, I say that when you go on a dangerous trip you bring the mighiest power you can convince to go with you, when appropriate (of course you’re not going to drag someone like Aragorn with you when all you have to do is clean up The Shire.) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/106 "2010-02-03T01:19:25Z")
Except of course that Gandalf is not a man, and that’s the whole point. Gandalf the Grey was in a sense merely an avatar of the Maiar who as an eternal spirit had access to knowledge not directly available from observable worldly facts. Reborn as Gandalf the White, he explicitly says that being in a worldly incarnation for so long had caused him to bury much of his true nature under the accumulated baggage of worldly existence. And in the Unfinished Tales when explaining why he made the choices he did concerning Bilbo’s quest, he in effect says that he had otherworldly reasons that can’t be spelled out in terms of temporal knowledge. If “because a wizard said so” doesn’t sound like a great reason to do something, remember that many of the characters in the saga had their doubts as well, other than they were willing to take his words on faith because of Gandalf’s track record. Some weren’t willing to grant him that much. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/107 "2010-02-03T16:11:02Z")
Not to counterbelabor the point, but that’s not the ONLY reason Gandalf gave for “Let’s not take Glorfindel”. The passage has been quoted earlier, but the gist is along the lines of “Yeah, Glorfindel is pretty mighty, but if it comes down to us needing to be pretty mighty, we’ve already lost.” So… again. There’s not really any point to bringing him. Seriously. How much fighting did the company actually do, and how much of it actually accomplished anything? Fight #1: Moria, Balin’s Tomb. Company wins a brief respite, then has to run away. What would have changed if Glorfindel had been there? Nothing. Fight #2: Moria, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum. Gandalf sacrifices himself to defeat the Balrog. What would have changed if Glorfindel had been there? Likely, nothing. Fight #3: On the slopes of Amon Hen. Boromir dies, the only reason the orcs don’t overwhelm and kill the rest of the company is that they seem content to carry off Merry and Pippin. What would have changed if Glorfindel had been there? Likely, nothing. Fight #4: Cirith Ungol. Sam defeats Shelob with Sting. What would have changed if Glorfindel had been there? Likely, nothing. Except perhaps Glorfindel’s demise. (This stuff is heavily implied in the text). That’s it for fights on the way to Mordor. There are some fights involving other members of the Fellowship, but they don’t impact Gandalf’s “plan for getting the ring to Mordor” - which, make no mistake, is what the Fellowship, by and large, was selected for. Amusingly, from this perspective, Merry and Pippin’s most valuable contribution to the Fellowship is, in fact, being CAPTURED by Saruman’s Orcs at Amon Hen, because they effectively acted as decoys for Saruman’s raiding party, who otherwise might very well have captured Frodo, or at least, Sam (Which, in the long run, would have been just as bad.). That’s it. That’s all the fighting the Fellowship does as a fellow ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/108 "2010-02-03T20:08:09Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Not to counterbelabor the point, but that’s not the ONLY reason Gandalf gave for “Let’s not take Glorfindel”. The passage has been quoted earlier, but the gist is along the lines of “Yeah, Glorfindel is pretty mighty, but if it comes down to us needing to be pretty mighty, we’ve already lost.” Also, I don’t think Gandalf made the choice anyway. I think it was Elrond who actually chose the members of the Fellowship. I don’t think he was willing to ORDER Glorfindel to go on a quest that was, when you get right down to it, a matter for mortals (i.e., Men & Hobbits) to deal with, and Glorfindel may not have wanted to volunteer. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/109 "2010-02-03T20:22:57Z")
Whereas, of course, Merry and Pippin not only volunteered, but if they’d wanted them not to go, they’d have to have basically imprisoned them in Rivendell to stop them from following the party. > [@](#): > > That’s it. That’s all the fighting the Fellowship does as a fellow Well, there’s also the attack by the spirit-wolves a little before Moria, and maybe one or two other skirmishes I’m forgetting, but I think the point still stands that Glorfindel probably wouldn’t have made a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/110 "2010-02-03T20:30:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Whereas, of course, Merry and Pippin not only volunteered, but if they’d wanted them not to go, they’d have to have basically imprisoned them in Rivendell to stop them from following the party. Bear in mind that it was Pippin whom Elrond strongly thought should stay behind, not Merry. Pippin was 29 or so when they left Rivendell, which is about the equivalent of a 16-18 year old Man. Elrond is uneasy about sending either of them, specifically because it’s so dangerous, hobbits are so small, and unlike Frodo & Sam, it’s conceivable for the quest to happen without them. But whereas Merry is clearly an adult, and clever enough so that it’s easy to imagine him being an asset despsite his size, Pippin is an adolescent and, seemingly, a mite dim. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/111 "2010-02-03T20:32:04Z")
I think that the inclusion of the Hobbits was to provide some characters that seem “regular” and understandable to lower middle class readers. Aragorn is a decedant of kings, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and the Balrog are “higher” beings, and even the Elves are steeped in old lore enough to have (in the past) slain Balrog and Dragons in the first age. Hobbits are needed as something to contrast all these uber-heroic types against, as well as providing a possible proxy for more unassuming readers to imagine themselves (if they care to) as being within the story. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/112 "2010-02-03T20:43:12Z")
Sorry, I realise that y’all were talking about justifications given within the story/text, but, as much as I can tell from reading the above posts, letting the hobbits (other than Frodo and Sam) go really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, and we (the readers of the books) have to resort to kludging our way to an explanation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/113 "2010-02-03T20:48:38Z")
I agree that it is implied that Glorfindel would be yet another Elf-Lord for Shelob to munch on, but probably not with Sam there. Sam got _under_ Shelob’s defenses and probably would if he had help. I think the big Glorfindel difference would have been at the bridge of Kazad-dum, Glorfindel would have taken Gandalf’s place on a “here we go again” basis. That would mean no Gandalf the White, but then a month would not have been lost in Lothlorien mourning Gandalf, but rather some time mourning Glorfindel. That’s assuming that Gandalf and Glorfindel and Legolas don’t triple team the flame of Udun tie him up horribly while Pippin comes in shrieking “the Shire” and outright kill the befuddled demon of the ancient world. Fool of a Took ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/114 "2010-02-03T23:18:11Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Sorry, I realise that y’all were talking about justifications given within the story/text, but, as much as I can tell from reading the above posts, letting the hobbits (other than Frodo and Sam) go really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, and we (the readers of the books) have to resort to kludging our way to an explanation. 🙂 Letting them go ? As I remember it, Pippin and Merry pretty much imposed themselves on the Fellowship. Since they weren’t going to let Frodo go, it made sense to have them at arm’s length, to make sure those well-meaning nitwits wouldn’t throw rocks down aeration wells and wake up ancestral monsters and such. … OK, bad example. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/115 "2010-02-04T00:08:36Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Being a Man, never having seen the light of the Trees or the Blessed Realm, not blessed with Half-Elven ancestors, and therefore incapable of divining the future, I say that when you go on a dangerous trip you bring the mighiest power you can convince to go with you, when appropriate (of course you’re not going to drag someone like Aragorn with you when all you have to do is clean up The Shire.) That’s exactly the kind of thinking that got Boromir into his trouble. That’s why, had everyone not listened to Gandalf, they would have regretted it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/116 "2010-02-04T03:26:02Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > ing. > > Fight #2: Moria, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum. Gandalf sacrifices himself to defeat the Balrog. What would have changed if Glorfindel had been there? Likely, nothing. Actually, apparently Glorfindel could take the Balrog. Which would have been a Bad Thing as then Gandalf would not have been reborn as The White. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/117 "2010-02-04T14:32:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, apparently Glorfindel could take the Balrog. Which would have been a Bad Thing as then Gandalf would not have been reborn as The White. We’re never really _TOLD_ if LotR’s Glorfindel is the same as “that other Glorfindel who took on a Balrog” - it seems a little strange, because, well, That Other Glorfindel DIED doing it. Certainly, one cannot necessarily expect someone who died battling on at the height of his power in the First Age to do as well on the rematch thousands of years later. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/118 "2010-02-04T14:54:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Whereas, of course, Merry and Pippin not only volunteered, but if they’d wanted them not to go, they’d have to have basically imprisoned them in Rivendell to stop them from following the party… As house arrest goes, that’s sweeeeeeeeet! Later in life, Tolkien wrote that the Glorfindel of LOTR was the same Elf, perhaps uniquely reincarnated, as had died fighting the Balrog at Gondolin: [Glorfindel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorfindel) See also: > **[Tuckborough](https://www.tuckborough.net)** > > The Thain's Book > **[Tuckborough](https://www.tuckborough.net)** > > The Thain's Book ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/119 "2010-02-04T16:00:31Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > We’re never really _TOLD_ if LotR’s Glorfindel is the same as “that other Glorfindel who took on a Balrog” - it seems a little strange, because, well, That Other Glorfindel DIED doing it. > > Certainly, one cannot necessarily expect someone who died battling on at the height of his power in the First Age to do as well on the rematch thousands of years later. Well like **Elendil’s Heir** states, evidence from later notes and sketches had Glorfindel being re-bodied in Valinor and being released from Mandos. He was then sent back to aid the fight with Sauron in the 2nd age, a kind of pre-Istari emissary. He’d certainly be no worse off then back in Gondolin - unless we assume that the years spent since coming back took his edge off. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/120 "2010-02-04T18:23:34Z")
Basically very much like what happened with Gandalf (the Gray), being reincarnated as Galdalf (the White) and being sent back to continue the struggle. Both fell fighting Balrogs, both were sent back to continue he fight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793.md?page=7)