# How did Gandalf plan on getting into Mordor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 28, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793 "2010-01-28T18:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/121 "2010-02-04T18:46:56Z")
I’m thinking… …[catapult!](http://www.maximumawesome.com/section2/catapult1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/122 "2010-02-04T18:52:16Z")
In fact, everyone who’s known to have ever slain a Balrog has died in the process. And Glorfindel’s slaying of his 'rog was by basically the same method Gandalf used: Both fell into a deep chasm. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/123 "2010-02-04T23:20:24Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > That’s exactly the kind of thinking that got Boromir into his trouble. Well, I should probably expand on this in the other thread, but I would have been on Boromir’s side in the council at Elrond’s house, seeing as how I am not as wise as Gandalf et al. > [@Airk](#): > > So… again. There’s not really any point to bringing him. Seriously. How much fighting did the company actually do, and how much of it actually accomplished anything? > … Where Glorfindel could have helped: when Gandalf was falling off the crumbling bridge in Moria, haul him up by the back of his robes? When fighting the Orcs on the slopes of Amon Hen: maybe he would have been at Boromir’s side, and Boromir would have survived? Of course Boromir’s death is how he redeems himself, but anyway… (And, as you point out, Merry and Pippin being captured ended up being a Very Good Thing in the grand scheme of events.) Supposing he stayed with the company: helped at Helm’s Deep? helped at the battle of Pelennor Fields? In any case, this is irrelevant in a way - when the Company is leaving, they really don’t know what is going to happen. > [@mlees](#): > > I think that the inclusion of the Hobbits was to provide some characters that seem “regular” and understandable to lower middle class readers. This is, I think, the real reason. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, apparently Glorfindel could take the Balrog. Which would have been a Bad Thing as then Gandalf would not have been reborn as The White. This is true too, but again, there was no way of knowing that things were going to happen this way back when they were planning in Rivendell. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Later in life, Tolkien wrote that the Glorfindel of LOTR was the same Elf, perhaps uniquely reincarnated, as had died fighting the Balrog at Gondolin: [Glorfindel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorfindel) Thank you! I’ve always wondered who the Glorfindel in LOTR was, in relation to the Glorfindel in the Silmarillion. Also, from reading the Wikipedia article, I see that in the first draft, Glorfindel _was_ part of The Company of The Ring. So ha! I feel vindicated. > [@Chronos](#): > > In fact, everyone who’s known to have ever slain a Balrog has died in the process. Everybody who I know by name to have slain a Balrog has died, that is true (I am limited in my knowledge to LOTR, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion). But in the final battle described in the Silmarillion, where the Valar return to Middle Earth and defeat Morgoth, many Balrog are destroyed. (By who, I don’t know - perhaps Orome or Tulkas, who are both, of course, Valar). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/124 "2010-02-04T23:34:08Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Everybody who I know by name to have slain a Balrog has died, that is true (I am limited in my knowledge to LOTR, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion). But in the final battle described in the Silmarillion, where the Valar return to Middle Earth and defeat Morgoth, many Balrog are destroyed. (By who, I don’t know - perhaps Orome or Tulkas, who are both, of course, Valar). I’ve always assumed that Tulkas & Orome handled the serious monster killing. And perhaps Eonwe, what with being mightiest in arms in Arda. But in Letters, the Perfesser writes that he doubts there were more than 7 Balrogs at the most. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/125 "2010-02-05T00:50:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ve always assumed that Tulkas & Orome handled the serious monster killing. And perhaps Eonwe, what with being mightiest in arms in Arda. But in Letters, the Perfesser writes that he doubts there were more than 7 Balrogs at the most. The Professor loved the word Balrog and knew very early on they were the name of a feared monster. Early versions of the fall of Gondolin have a thousand attacking the city. So at that time they may have been uber trolls, not yet demons. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/126 "2010-02-05T16:38:40Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Well, I should probably expand on this in the other thread, but I would have been on Boromir’s side in the council at Elrond’s house, seeing as how I am not as wise as Gandalf et al. > > Where Glorfindel could have helped: when Gandalf was falling off the crumbling bridge in Moria, haul him up by the back of his robes? Of all your points I find this one strangely ridiculous. Yes, of course he would have been standing there RIGHT next to him, and posessing elven superbalance, would have been able to -catch- someone who was not merely FALLING but being pulled downwards by the weight of a falling fire demon. (Note: To the best of my recollection, in the BOOK, Gandalf DOES NOT do the ‘cling to the ledge for 10 seconds’ thing he does in the film. He just gets pulled off and falls in a non-ridiculous fashion.). And there would certainly have been no chance that the slender, recently shattered stone bridge could have collapsed further under that weight. > [@](#): > > When fighting the Orcs on the slopes of Amon Hen: maybe he would have been at Boromir’s side, Why do you say so? Legolas and Gimli were both running around out there, and neither of them were at Boromir’s side. The company was scattered. Counting on him being in a particular place isn’t very useful. And Glorfindel was mighty, but he wasn’t necessarily good for hundreds of orcs. (I forget exactly how many uruks Eomer claims to have killed, but it was a lot.) > [@](#): > > Supposing he stayed with the company: helped at Helm’s Deep? helped at the battle of Pelennor Fields? None of which, really, has any bearing on the errand of the company. > [@](#): > > In any case, this is irrelevant in a way - when the Company is leaving, they really don’t know what is going to happen. Right. But as mentioned, they know that they’re going to need to rely on stealth because relying on force will get them killed regardless. > [@](#): > > Thank you! I’ve always wondered who the Glorfindel in LOTR was, in relation to the Glorfindel in the Silmarillion. Also, from reading the Wikipedia article, I see that in the first draft, Glorfindel _was_ part of The Company of The Ring. So ha! I feel vindicated. Yes, because the idea that the AUTHOR discarded this as a bad idea makes your case so much more compelling. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/127 "2010-02-05T22:07:37Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I don’t mean to belabour the point, but I feel compelled to throw in one last post. Of course, you can try and use logic to defend the decision (Glorfindel would draw too much attention to the Company, whereas Gandalf, who is much more powerful, would not, because [insert plausible explanation here]). Glorfindel aside, I don’t see why Gandalf would attract THAT much attention from the Enemy. Some attention, sure. But Gandalf had been wandering around in Middle Earth for a long time, “finding things out”. He must have been known for spending his time in the company of ragtag groups of adventurers (cite: the Hobbit). Is it possible, too, that Gandalf didn’t really want anyone as powerful as Glorfindel with them just because of the presence of the Ring? Galadriel had yet to pass her test, and even though she later did, she didn’t have to travel far and wide with the Ring at arm’s length for months at a time in a perilous situation. If I were Gandalf, I wouldn’t have wanted anyone in the group who I wasn’t fairly confident I could control should they be swayed by the Ring, after all. How would Glorfindel (or, hypothetically, any really powerful Elf) have reacted if the Ring was easily at hand when confronting Durin’s Bane, or in any number of precarious spots along the way? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/128 "2010-02-05T22:17:07Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > Glorfindel aside, I don’t see why Gandalf would attract THAT much attention from the Enemy. Some attention, sure. But Gandalf had been wandering around in Middle Earth for a long time, “finding things out”. He must have been known for spending his time in the company of ragtag groups of adventurers (cite: the Hobbit). > > Is it possible, too, that Gandalf didn’t really want anyone as powerful as Glorfindel with them just because of the presence of the Ring? Galadriel had yet to pass her test, and even though she later did, she didn’t have to travel far and wide with the Ring at arm’s length for months at a time in a perilous situation. If I were Gandalf, I wouldn’t have wanted anyone in the group who I wasn’t fairly confident I could control should they be swayed by the Ring, after all. How would Glorfindel (or, hypothetically, any really powerful Elf) have reacted if the Ring was easily at hand when confronting Durin’s Bane, or in any number of precarious spots along the way? I don’t think it was Gandalf who ruled out Glorfindel’s presence. It was Elrond. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/129 "2010-02-05T22:51:32Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I think that the inclusion of the Hobbits was to provide some characters that seem “regular” and understandable to lower middle class readers. > > Aragorn is a decedant of kings, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and the Balrog are “higher” beings, and even the Elves are steeped in old lore enough to have (in the past) slain Balrog and Dragons in the first age. > > Hobbits are needed as something to contrast all these uber-heroic types against, as well as providing a possible proxy for more unassuming readers to imagine themselves (if they care to) as being within the story. My own completely nonscientific wild-ass guess is that Tolkien included Merry and Pippin for comic relief, to provide contrast to the “high” characters (_pace_ **mlees** ), and to show that you don’t have to be an Elvenlord or a Ranger to fight evil. Frodo and Sam, of course, show that no matter how badass they are, warriors and swords can’t, in the end, defeat evil. Frodo and Sam don’t fulfill their quest by fighting - remember, they ultimately abandon their arms. No, victory is bought with their suffering. Frodo and Sam’s tale, from the breaking of the fellowship to Gollum’s death and the destruction of the Ring, is a passion story. Don’t forget, JRRT was a devout Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/130 "2010-02-06T00:21:58Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Of all your points I find this one strangely ridiculous. … Those were all things that _might_ have happened. Not that things that would _necessarily_ happen. AS it turns out, everything went pretty well, but, once again, **they didn’t know in advance that things would turn out so well.** > [@](#): > > Yes, because the idea that the AUTHOR discarded this as a bad idea makes your case so much more compelling. 😉 Well, I never professed to be as good a writer as final-draft Tolkien. First-draft Tolkien, maybe. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/131 "2010-02-06T00:25:16Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > Glorfindel aside, I don’t see why Gandalf would attract THAT much attention from the Enemy. Some attention, sure. But Gandalf had been wandering around in Middle Earth for a long time, “finding things out”. He must have been known for spending his time in the company of ragtag groups of adventurers (cite: the Hobbit). I will admit that this is a good point. > [@](#): > > Is it possible, too, that Gandalf didn’t really want anyone as powerful as Glorfindel with them just because of the presence of the Ring? Dear fluiddruid, as the only person here who has real-life experience with this, I will ask you, next time you and your friends do a real life enactment of Frodo’s journey, to make Glorfindel part of The Company and then report back the results. You will be pleasantly surprised at how much easier the Quest will go. I guarantee it! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793/132 "2010-02-06T01:13:04Z")
> [@](#): > > AS it turns out, everything went pretty well, but, once again, they didn’t know in advance that things would turn out so well. Well, most of them didn’t know, and nobody knew details, but Gandalf did have a vague premonition that it would be for the best if there were nine in the company, and the hobbits were among them. And when Gandalf has a vague premonition of something, the wise listen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-gandalf-plan-on-getting-into-mordor/526793.md?page=6)