# How did God create light before the Sun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2000, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597 "2000-02-06T22:20:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2000, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/21 "2000-02-08T06:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > the god created light before he created the heavens thing . . an urban legend. Ummm…that’d be an Ur-ban Legend! 🙂 Now, the Big Bang thing…that’s intriguing. Best estimate of the temperature of the Big Bang: 6 billion degrees. (At that heat, Fahrenheit, Kelvin, and Celsius doesn’t make a whole lot of difference, but I believe this is Celsius.) Now, above a certain temperature, the flux of energy is so high that electrons and protons cannot continue to exist; the irradiation overloads them and they go up the Eightfold Path and poof. The one particle that can exist at that temperature: the photon. Light. ---
**Author:** ![WallyM7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5e925/32.png) [@WallyM7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WallyM7)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/22 "2000-02-07T19:26:00Z")
Poly, you won’t believe this, but as soon as I hit submit I thought to myself, “Watch Poly work in a photon post somehow.” Don’t be alarmed, Poly. It was a fluke. Most of the time a haven’t a clue what you’ll say next. And I like it that way. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/23 "2000-02-07T19:34:00Z")
Wouldja believe it was the Holy Spirit revealing that to you, Wally? Didn’t think so. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ChrisCTP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@ChrisCTP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisCTP)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/24 "2000-02-11T06:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe it means that Jesus was the light of the world, and, well, radiated enough light for God to see what He was doing. Pretty damn bright light, Jesus…y’know, considering he wasn’t around until waaaaaay after that. Least that’s what I remember from VBS. * * * “…being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.” ---
**Author:** ![plank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@plank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plank)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/25 "2000-02-12T22:56:00Z")
It’s all a load of bollocks though, isn’t it? I don’t mean to be dismissive, but the origins of most religions date back such a long time, that all we are left with is belief, faith, opinion. And that’s mine. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2000, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/26 "2000-02-13T00:09:00Z")
Oh, goody. Darwin’s still hungry… From _Genesis_1, KJV: > [@](#): > > 1: In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. The Earth is _part_ of the heavens. See any picture of Earth taken from spacecraft. This verse was obviously written by someone who thought the sky and the Earth upon which he lived were separate structures. But the Earth is just one planet among many, orbiting one star among many. > [@](#): > > 2: And the Earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The ancient Hebrews, being desert nomads, saw the land as being stable, reliable, and slow to change. They saw the sea as chaotic and dangerous. Perhaps the writer selected _waters_ to invoke a vision of chaos in the mind of the readers. And God was about to make order come out of chaos. But let’s say he meant the seas: If the Sun had not yet been created, wouldn’t those waters have been frozen solid? > [@](#): > > 3: And God said, Let there be light, and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. If the light created by God was the light of Jesus, it wouldn’t be sunlight, true. But if it’s the light of Jesus, why is it called “Day” here? Why is the lack of light (darkness) called “Night”? It’s obvious this passage was written by someone who did not know the Earth rotates and we get night (darkness) when we are on the side of the Earth opposite the Sun. In 6,7 and 8 God divides waters from waters with the firmament of Heaven. Apparently, the writer thought there was water in the sky. (The source of rain?) And the word “firmament”, according to Webster’s, comes from a Latin word, _firmare_, which means “support.” So the heavens support the Sun, Moon, planets and stars that come on the fourth day. Actually, they aren’t supported by anything, they move through empty space, subject only to gravity and inertia. > [@](#): > > 9: And God said, Let the waters under the Heavens be gathered together under one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10: And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas; and God saw that it was good. Gee, I guess the writer DID mean the oceans when he wrote about waters earlier. And note that the Sun STILL has yet to be created. Those Seas would still be frozen solid. Gathering together in one place a lot of frozen water would be a miracle, all right. **tbea925** said that yeast does not require sunlight. Unfortuantely, God doesn’t creat yeast in verses 11 & 12, He creates grass, herbs and fruit trees, which all do need sunlight. \*\*handy spake: > [@](#): > > There are more light sopurces than the sun. Unfortunately, God creates ALL the heavenly lights on the same day in verses 14 - 18. In verses 19 - 25, God creates all the animals. BTW, day five ends in verse 23. But more animals were created on day six (verses 24 & 25), before finally getting around to Man in verse 26, where God unexpectedly and inexplicable begins to refer to Himself in the plural. I could go on, but that’s enough for now. I have a question that’s always annoyed me: “Why do so many Bible verses begin with the word ‘and’?” * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/27 "2000-02-14T19:01:00Z")
Jab says: \<\< “…the Heavens and the Earth.” This verse was obviously written by someone who thought the sky and the Earth upon which he lived were separate structures. But the Earth is just one planet among many, orbiting one star among many. \>\> Continuing in that vein: “My love is like a red, red rose” was obviously written by someone who thought that people and flowers are identical. But people are mammals, not identical to plants in any way imaginable: no leaves, no petals, no thorns, and few people are coloured red. “What light through yonder window breaks” was obviously written by someone who thought that light had mass, and could break something fragile like a window. “The best laid plans of mice and men…” was obviously written by someone who thought that mice could make plans, just like humans can. C’mon. I think the opening lines of Genesis are a beautiful expression (poetical) of the origins of the world. Sure, Earth and Heavens are separated – because the rest of the book is concerned with morality, which happens on Earth, not in the Heavens. The whole opening poetry is about separation – earth from heaven, light from darkness, land from waters, water above from water below. \<\< And the Earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. \>\> jab sees this as written by people who lived in a desert and didn’t know how to travel by ocean. But the word “deep” when used here does not mean “ocean” – that’s much later, English usage. The word “deep” in the Hebrew text has no equivalent – it means depths, unfathomable, unimaginable, deepness. It is used in the Hebrew text only in the context of primordial chaos. And I find this line a beautiful expression of an artist creating (whether sculture, poetry, music,…). The artist starts with the base material, unformed, unstructured, and the spirit of the artist moves gently, caressingly, like a parent hovering over a child, over the material. This is not a science text, but a poem, and a brilliant poem with amazing depth of feeling in a few, sparse Hebrew words. To answer your last question, jab, the original Hebrew text did not have punctuation, no periods to mark the end of sentences, no paragraphing to mark the ends of thoughts. The word “and” (Hebrew: vav) was therefore frequently placed at the beginning of a new thought, to indicate both a linkage with the prior sentence, and a separation. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/28 "2000-02-14T19:34:00Z")
**Chris** , there’s a theological belief that the Christ coexisted with his Papa from before the Creation. It’s fairly popular in some fundamentalist theology, and IIRC is based on the idea that, well, Christ is God and has always existed, as well as a couple plural references in the Genesis creation story. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/29 "2000-02-14T19:43:00Z")
andros, I agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/30 "2000-02-15T02:54:00Z")
pluto wrote: > [@](#): > > I have heard explanations that posit that the description in Genesis is from the point of view of someone on earth. In this view, the original light (“Fiat lux!”) was indeed the sun, which lit the sky but was hidden by the cloud cover (the waters in the firmament). When the sun was “created” later on it was merely disclosed by the parting of the clouds. From an earth-dweller’s viewpoint the light was there before the sun. Problem is, there weren’t any Earth-dwellers to witness it before Day Six. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/31 "2000-02-15T03:09:00Z")
I actually don’t have problems with _Genesis_ 1 being poetry. My trouble is with people who take it literally, and the OP clearly takes it literally. The problems of creating light before the Sun, and liquid water without a Sun and flowering plants without a Sun show that you can’t take it literally. **CK** , you ought to know by now that I’m an atheist and I accept the Bible as a work of ancient literature and not a science text or even as a history book. * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/32 "2000-02-15T03:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > You might be right. I know I read somewhere that scientists believe the Universe consisted of glowing gases long before the stars and planets formed. So it was just God lighting his farts? [sub]I’m sorry. I really am. I will flatulate myself now.[/sub] * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/33 "2000-02-15T15:24:00Z")
Jab, the problem is that there is no argument with those who take the text literally. Merely pointing out seeming contradictions will never convince them; they can swallow camels (like denying all of evolution), so they won’t strain at gnats (like what light there was before the sun). They have answers to most of your points, some of those answers 1500 years old or more. It’s like trying to point out to ultra-conservatives who oppose abortion AND oppose gun control, that there is an internal inconsistency in their position. You won’t ever convince someone to change his position just because it’s internally inconsistent. To the contrary, it just makes them dig in their heels. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/34 "2000-02-15T16:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Pretty damn bright light, Jesus…y’know, considering he wasn’t around until waaaaaay after that. “Before Abraham was, I am.” — Jesus ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/35 "2000-02-15T21:07:00Z")
I bet you’d never get **cmkeller** to agree that the “light before the sun” was the light of Jesus. 😉 * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/36 "2000-02-15T21:35:00Z")
Hmmm…I know in Jewish thought the Torah predates Creation. Would the Messiah also do so? If so, I suspect that CMK would agree to the syllogism “If Jesus be the Messiah, then he would predate the Creation.” (Note the rare present subjunctive needed to make it sufficiently hypothetical to suit CMK’s taste.) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/37 "2000-02-15T21:37:00Z")
God, I love the present subjunctive. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/38 "2000-02-15T21:43:00Z")
I thought the Messiah was just a very holy man who will fulfill the prophesies (for Jews). He could hardly be around forever then, although the prophesy of him might have been. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/39 "2000-02-15T21:53:00Z")
My question: if God is omnipotent, why did he have to rest the 7th day? 🙂 * * * Each of us, at some time in our lives, turns to someone - a father, a brother, a God - and asks, “Why am I here? What was I meant to be?” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597/40 "2000-02-15T21:56:00Z")
This might sound like a dumb question, and I’m sorry, but what Gaudere said got me thinking I might have made an errant assumption about Judaism. Do Jews believe that G-d is spirit? Or that He is biological? Or something else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-god-create-light-before-the-sun/17597.md?page=3)