# How Did Hitler Wind Up In The German Army? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 8, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942 "2015-10-08T17:47:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/21 "2015-10-09T10:51:00Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I’m not sure this is correct. I have read that the only way you wouldn’t get an Iron Cross was for being shot for desertion. I have never heard of that. Do you have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/22 "2015-10-09T11:04:52Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I’m not sure this is correct. I have read that the only way you wouldn’t get an Iron Cross was for being shot for desertion. No unfortunately I don’t, and I don’t even recall what book it was from. I’ll keep looking. However, the Wiki article indicates my recollection is wrong. However, Hitler was in Munich when he joined the army so that is how he ended up in the Bavarian Army, which was under the command of the Kaiser as from the start of the Great War so effectively it was part of the German Army. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/23 "2015-10-09T11:17:18Z")
They were handing them out like candy to friends in the last few days; but before that it was a variable award for either gallantry or service. From 2 - 5 million were given out, but only about 200k 1st class ( which was Hitler’s ). However, the German Army alone had 11 million under arms; and as the Central Powers were fighting against twice as many of the Adversary, there were plenty of opportunities for gallantry. And of course, many like Hitler held two, both 1st and 2nd class, which further deflates the numbers. It would be the \*Pour le Mérite \*that equalled a VC; although many a chap in war getting a minor order could have got the higher order for the same action: depends on the luck of the draw. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/24 "2015-10-09T11:37:54Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > They were handing them out like candy to friends in the last few days; but before that it was a variable award for either gallantry or service. From 2 - 5 million were given out, but only about 200k 1st class ( which was Hitler’s ). > However, the German Army alone had 11 million under arms; and as the Central Powers were fighting against twice as many of the Adversary, there were plenty of opportunities for gallantry. And of course, many like Hitler held two, both 1st and 2nd class, which further deflates the numbers. > It would be the \*Pour le Mérite \*that equalled a VC; although many a chap in war getting a minor order could have got the higher order for the same action: depends on the luck of the draw. Thanks Claverhouse… However, now I wonder what Hitler ever did to merit a medal- even second class Iron Cross. I have never seen a citation for gallantry in action for him (not that I have ever looked) so I wonder what happened. I know that Sepp Dietrich overclaimed his Great War history- his biographer could never find evidence of his claim for Iron Cross 1st Class- but if Hitler had done the same surely it would have been exposed. His service history must have been examined to the nth degree. Sorry for the thread drift. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/25 "2015-10-09T12:01:22Z")
Sepp Dietrich, by the way, is an example of somebody who was promoted during WWI. Like Hitler, he volunteered in 1914, but unlike Hitler, he made it to senior NCO (_Vizewachtmeister_) by 1918. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/26 "2015-10-09T12:08:41Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Sepp Dietrich, by the way, is an example of somebody who was promoted during WWI. Like Hitler, he volunteered in 1914, but unlike Hitler, he made it to senior NCO (_Vizewachtmeister_) by 1918. Well, he joined the Bavarian Army in 1911 and was invalided out a month later after falling from a horse. He rejoined at the outbreak of the war in the artillery, joined the Storm Troopers and won the Iron Cross Second Class. He finished in the Tank Corps (in a captured British tank) but the history is murky. He certainly achieved many awards in the Second World War. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/27 "2015-10-09T12:20:07Z")
Where did you read that Dietrich’s war decorations from WWI were controversial? Unlike WWII, the German army retreated in an orderly fashion and the records usually survived (albeit not to this day). It would have been difficult to make fraudulent claims about war medals. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/28 "2015-10-09T12:30:00Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Where did you read that Dietrich’s war decorations from WWI were controversial? Unlike WWII, the German army retreated in an orderly fashion and the records usually survived (albeit not to this day). It would have been difficult to make fraudulent claims about war medals. The SS- A New History by Adrian Weale. I think I bought the English version in Norway. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/29 "2015-10-09T12:32:57Z")
About promotion: casualties on the Western Front were high-so there would be a demand for senior NCOs. I once read of a German unit that had all of its commissioned officers killed (a sergeant had to assume command). So Cpl. Hitler must have had some issues-no promotion? I wonder why. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/30 "2015-10-09T13:31:32Z")
As I wrote earlier, there were relatively (i. e. compared to the armies in other countries) few available ranks in the German military to begin with and those who were promoted were carefully chosen, even during times of war. That’s also true for the officer corps. For instance, if a career officer held the rank of second lieutenant at the beginning of WWI (and still in his early to mid twenties), he typically would only make it to captain by the end of the war, even if he proved to be very capable and courageous (see for instance Erwin Rommel). This also means that already by the end of 1914, a lot of company commanders were lieutenants, many of them reserve officers. The German military was very reluctant to grant anybody who didn’t have the desired educational and especially social background access to the officer corps. Being promoted “through the ranks” from enlisted to officer was extremely rare and only for those with long and distinguished career as senior NCOs before the war. With regards to Hitler, I guess they just didn’t think that he would be a good leader of men and they wouldn’t promote him just because for length of service. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/31 "2015-10-09T14:11:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I haven’t read it, but the reviews make it sound not so convincing. > > [The Work of a Great Simplifier](http://www.amazon.com/review/R2QT33TUOXW8J2/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0199226385&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=283155&store=books#wasThisHelpful) > [@](#): > > There are many more examples that could be given, but this is already becoming a very long review. Certainly these are sufficient to tell us that even as Weber brings a wealth of new evidence to the table, he also goes far beyond that evidence in his arguments and conclusions. In every case his purpose appears to be to belittle Hitler and deny or minimize his medals, his war wounds, his accomplishments and sacrifices. In this, Weber’s work is similar to all too many other Hitler biographies: Rather than honestly try to understand or explain the man, instead it does its best to fit him into the author’s preconceived notions. It is, in fact, quite saddening that a work of such potential fails to aim higher. Weber’s propagandistic spin is both unscholarly and unnecessary; we do not need him to persuade us, in order to deplore the Führer’s later political decisions, that Hitler was also a coward and failure as a soldier. > > On the contrary, Hitler did far too much real evil for us who disagree emphatically with his views to be in any need whatever of inventing spurious failings on his part in order to make him look bad. And one need hardly be a Hitler apologist, far less a neo-Nazi, to wish for the historical record to be set as straight as possible, without obfuscation. A fellow World War I veteran with Socialist sympathies, Michael Schlehuber, once said: “I disagree entirely with Hitler on political matters, and give this testimony [of his exemplary military service] only because I highly respect Hitler as a war comrade.” (Weber, naturally, dismisses Schlehuber too and insinuates – yet again without a shred of evidence – dishonest motives on his part.) > > To our mind, unlike Weber’s, bravery in battle and moral bankruptcy on other matters are by no means necessarily mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary: In the person of the war volunteer and dictator Adolf Hitler, most biographers agree that we can fairly recognize both. The former should no more be denied than be used to excuse the latter. I haven’t read Thomas Weber’s book either, but based on what was written about it (there were several articles in German newspapers), I have a vague suspicion that this is right on the money. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/32 "2015-10-09T14:55:32Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Thanks Claverhouse… However, now I wonder what Hitler ever did to merit a medal- even second class Iron Cross. I have never seen a citation for gallantry in action for him (not that I have ever looked) so I wonder what happened. He received the Iron Cross Second Class in December 1914 when he and another soldier spotted a wounded officer out in the open and went out to carry him back to safety. He received the Iron Cross First Class in August 1918 when he captured a French outpost; Hitler was alone but he convinced the French soldiers that they were surrounded and they surrendered. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/33 "2015-10-09T15:10:08Z")
Approximately 4,000,000 Iron Crosses Second Class and 145,000 Iron Crosses First Class were awarded in World War I. The exact numbers aren’t know because the records were destroyed during World War II. All of the First Class awards represent duplicate recipients; you had to have been awarded a Iron Cross Second Class in order to be awarded a First Class. There was also a Iron Cross Grand Class, which was only awarded to Generals and a Star of the Grand Class, which was only awarded twice; once to Field Marshal Blucher in 1813 and once to Field Marshal Hindenburg in 1918. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/34 "2015-10-09T15:10:17Z")
Well, the British Army, however less of the _nobility_, contrary to appearance, was even more aristocratic and class-conscious before WWI than others — partially because it was also the aristocracy and gentry solely in control of the government and institutions for a few centuries — and the few who rose from the ranks such as Hector MacDonald and Wullie Robertson were the exceptions that tested the rule: they got around this during that war by declaring the new officers for the New Armies ( ‘new’ not signifying a change, but additional ) ‘_Temporary Gentlemen_’. And on the understanding they would revert to where they were happiest after the war. Whilst the SS were the first force ( they were not actually army ) to encourage mingling between officers and men [no separate eating arrangements] : the WWI German Army did this to a greater extent than other armies in the trenches. Even the French, 120 odd years after the Revolution was still run by the Aristocracy, being catholic in the religious sense rather than the all-embracing sense. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/35 "2015-10-09T15:39:18Z")
I’d say that the German Army before WWI was the most conservative and socially-closed of them all. There was no equivalent of Wully Robertson in the Germany Army. I’m not aware of even a single case in German military history before 1914 in which an individual from a (1) humble background and (2) without a good education (for which there were very formal requirements) entered the service as a common soldier and made it to commissioned officer (a notable exception from this rule would be some technical specialties in fortification and armament). ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/36 "2015-10-09T16:00:50Z")
Well, Hector MacDonald shot himself, remember. As for Prussia, depends how far back you go; Frederick promoted non-nobles when he had a war going on; but afterwards closed it to the aristocracy ( to bribe them to keep the system running ). Of course the Prussian gentry were poor compared to the English or the French anyway ( as was the state ); and they didn’t have the English private school system ( some military schools, yes ). Still I’ve read of some who rose from the ranks from the Napoleonic wars on. Plus 2000 odd jews became German officers in WWI, and they couldn’t have been aristocrats unless Rothschilds. Here’s a wiki on British Temporary [**Gentlemen**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dumelow/Temporary_Gentlemen), I have no idea why it is under a user-name. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/37 "2015-10-09T16:16:41Z")
We are not necessarily talking about nobility. After the Napoleonic era, commoners were basically accepted as officers, but they had to come from “respected” families (usually meaning: affluent) and have a good education. Applicants from the nobility on the other hand could be dirt poor and not-so-well-educated. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/38 "2015-10-09T20:59:12Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Plus 2000 odd jews became German officers in WWI, and they couldn’t have been aristocrats unless Rothschilds… My Great Grandfather was a Captain, I believe. He didn’t live long enough to be gassed, however. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/39 "2015-10-09T22:06:09Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I think that anybody who volunteers can get into the US Army as well, citizenship not being an issue. Citizenship is not an issue, provided they have a Green Card and can otherwise legally work in the United States. That’s a bit different than _anybody_. Also, non citizens are preclud3d from jobs that require a security clearance. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942/40 "2015-10-09T23:17:02Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Well, Hector MacDonald shot himself, remember. Like it was yesterday… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-hitler-wind-up-in-the-german-army/733942.md?page=3)