How did Jesus sacrifice himself?

[yBeayf]

The Gospels clearly state that his human will did NOT go along with divine will. It says in black and white that he asked for one will to be done and the other will not to be done.

No, it’s just saying that the human will went along with the divine will completely. Whatever the divine will willed, the human will went along.

I obviously called it for what it was. A red herring.

Preterite verbs had nothing to do with my point. The sentence itself did. I’m finding it slightly surreal that I’m having to argue this with you. Besides, everybody knows that preterite verbs ain’t got no rhythm.

I can imagine God changing himself into a swan or a golden shower for that matter.

No, you can imagine what you think to be God doing that, but not God Himself.

Like I said, it’s turtles all the way down

I like turtles.

There is a real physical effect that is desired, having a sinner in the presence of God.

The divine nature and energies are not physical, so this is not a physical effect.

[Blake]

@yBeayf

No, it’s just saying that the human will went along with the divine will completely. Whatever the divine will willed, the human will went along.

Nobody said the human will didn’t eventually go along. As I said you are completely ignoring the issue. Why won’t you answer the question yBeayf?

Jesus asked that “not my will, but yours be done”. Doesn’t that prove that his [human] will and the divine will were at odds? If they did not want different things then why did he pray that his human will not be done?

Please answer the actual question here yBeayf. We’re not discussing whether the human will was ultimately subjugated. How could Jesus’ human will not be done and the divine will be done if they were both exactly the same?

It’s a simple question, can you please answer rather than simply repeating ad nauseum that the human will eventually went along.

Let me put it another way. Jesus prayed that his human will not be done. Was that prayer answered? Was his human will not done, or wasn’t it?

Preterite verbs had nothing to do with my point.

Which is precisely why it is a red herring.

And you still haven’t answered the question. Want to try?

No, you can imagine what you think to be God doing that, but not God Himself.

I see. It’s a True Scotsmen. God can do anything. But when he can’t do something then that;ls not truly God who’s not doing it.

You do know that True Scotsmen is logically invalid don’t you?

The divine nature and energies are not physical, so this is not a physical effect.

Dude I don’t think that it has escaped anyone’s notice at this stage that you are squirming and weaselling and simply ignoring multiple direct questions in every post.

YBeayf it’s quite simple. I have an effect I want to achieve. I want to move a soul from hell into the divine presence, and I want that soul to feel no pain as a result. Can God manage that act or not?

[cosmosdan]

@Czarcasm

Performing a minor miracle during the trial would have been a good start. And don’t give me that nonsense about how they should have taken his word on faith-others were being tried for the same crime and they weren’t believed, and he apparantly had no problems performing miracles before when he was in front of large crowds of people

.
I’ll take a shot at this one. Why would he preform some minor miracle? To save his life? The quality I find in Jesus is that he lived the truth in the flesh. That truth is that we are primarily spirit and only temporarily physical. That being the case he didn’t see his physical body as his life. Jesus told us not to place value in the temporary things that fade away but to value the eternal things. For him to preform some miracle to preserve his physical body would be to value the temporary more than the eternal and betray the truth he preached and lived.

I am obviously talking about a being who is supposedly all powerful and omnipresent but cannot make his presence known to millions of people. Please note that I am not talking about vague feelings of joy and logic problems that supposedly prove his existence-I’m talking about a simple “Sorry to interrupt your meal, but I am God. If you ever wondered whether I exist, well, here I am. Now, I fully understand that you might still have doubts about my existence. I mean, crazy people have heard voices that they claimed came from me since, well, there were crazy people. I’ll tell you what-why don’t you call 20 people at random, have them write down what they heard at this time, and compare notes.”

I’ve seen this type of arguement on SDMB several times. If God is and cares about us then he/she would let us know. Something like that? To quote Fox Mulder “the truth is out there.” It is the nature of free will. We need only do as Christ instructed, Choose the eternal rather than the fleeting. When we make the fleeting our primary reality, it is not God hideing from us but the other way around.

[yBeayf]

How could Jesus’ human will not be done and the divine will be done if they were both exactly the same?

Even though the human will is in complete obedience to the divine will, that does not mean that they are the same will.

It’s a simple question, can you please answer rather than simply repeating ad nauseum that the human will eventually went along.

I have already answered the question several times. The human will was simply demonstrating its subjection to the divine will. They both want the same thing, but the human will wants it because the divine will wants it.

Jesus prayed that his human will not be done. Was that prayer answered? Was his human will not done, or wasn’t it?

“Not my will, but thine, be done” was not a prayer, but a statement of subjection of His human will to the divine.

Which is precisely why it is a red herring.

And you still haven’t answered the question. Want to try?

Do you honestly not understand the point behind the my statement that contained the words “preterite verbs”?

I see. It’s a True Scotsmen. God can do anything. But when he can’t do something then that;ls not truly God who’s not doing it.

But if God is already defined as being unchangeable, then anything you imagine changing cannot be God.

Dude I don’t think that it has escaped anyone’s notice at this stage that you are squirming and weaselling and simply ignoring multiple direct questions in every post.

It’s certainly escaped my notice. But to satisfy you, I shall answer the remainder of the questions in your latest post:

Why won’t you answer the question yBeayf?

Pick whatever reason satisfies you. I don’t really care.

Doesn’t that prove that his [human] will and the divine will were at odds?

No.

If they did not want different things then why did he pray that his human will not be done?

He didn’t.

Want to try?

Three.

You do know that True Scotsmen is logically invalid don’t you?

Yes.

I want to move a soul from hell into the divine presence, and I want that soul to feel no pain as a result. Can God manage that act or not?

Hell is the divine presence as experienced by a person who rejects it. Therefore your question makes no sense.

Did I miss any?

[andros]

@cosmosdan

We need only do as Christ instructed, Choose the eternal rather than the fleeting.

We need only choose the “right” belief out of hundreds, and it we get it wrong, we’re fucked.

[Czarcasm]

@cosmosdan

.
I’ll take a shot at this one. Why would he preform some minor miracle? To save his life? The quality I find in Jesus is that he lived the truth in the flesh. That truth is that we are primarily spirit and only temporarily physical. That being the case he didn’t see his physical body as his life. Jesus told us not to place value in the temporary things that fade away but to value the eternal things. For him to preform some miracle to preserve his physical body would be to value the temporary more than the eternal and betray the truth he preached and lived.

If he didn’t value his physical body, then what did he sacrifice? We are back to the original question and the same circular reasoning.

@cosmodan

I’ve seen this type of arguement on SDMB several times. If God is and cares about us then he/she would let us know. Something like that? To quote Fox Mulder “the truth is out there.” It is the nature of free will. We need only do as Christ instructed, Choose the eternal rather than the fleeting. When we make the fleeting our primary reality, it is not God hideing from us but the other way around.

Yes, you’ve seen this argument several times. That is because it’s a valid argument. If I see my child about to wander into heavy traffic, I don’t leave unsigned notes hidden under rocks that say “Beware that which might harm you-you must do the right thing!” I personally go to my child and tell him “Don’t go out into traffic! Cars will run you over and you will die!”
Choose the eternal and not the fleeting? Which eternal? Nice quoting a fictional character who spent most of his life trying to get at the truth and getting it horribly wrong most of the time, btw. “The truth is out there” indeed. If there is a “god” might it not be too much to ask that he or she point out which “truth” we should listen to?

[cosmosdan]

@andros

We need only choose the “right” belief out of hundreds, and it we get it wrong, we’re fucked.

That isn’t anything like what I said. Is it your belief?

[Blake]

@yBeayf

Even though the human will is in complete obedience to the divine will, that does not mean that they are the same will.

OK.
You started out saying that there was only one will.
Then you said there were two wills that were the same.
Now you say there are two wills that are not the same but one is subjugated to the other.

Is this your final position or are you likely to change yet again?

I have already answered the question several times. The human will was simply demonstrating its subjection to the divine will. They both want the same thing, but the human will wants it because the divine will wants it.

No, you have avoided the question several times and you just did so again.

If they both have wanted the same thing then why did Jesus ask for one will to be done and one will not to be done?

How can one will be done and one will not be done if they both want the same thing?

Can you please answer this question rather than just asserting that they wanted the same thing.

“Not my will, but thine, be done” was not a prayer….

That really comes close to wrapping it up for you dude. You are clearly being wilfully ignorant. You are also clearly making this up as you go along.

I already quoted where it says quite clearly that it is a fricken prayer. How the hell can you claim that it’s not a prayer when the Gospels state in black and white that “He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 4"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

That’s a fricken prayer. It says so quite clearly. On what sort of bizarro world is that not a prayer? Given that I have already provided that quote once before and you have read it, it now seems quite clear clearly seeking to evade this issue rather than address it.
Now that we have established beyond any reasonable dispute that it was parayer, can you answer the question without further weaselling?

When Jesus withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond the Apostles, knelt down and prayed, “Father… not my will, but yours be done.” Was that prayer answered?

It’s a simple question. Can we get an answer without further weaselling? Or ludicrous claims that when it says Jesus prayed he wasn’t praying?

Do you honestly not understand the point behind the my statement that contained the words “preterite verbs”?

All that I care about is that we have established that it’s an irrelevance.

Clearly you can not answer the question.

But if God is already defined as being unchangeable, then anything you imagine changing cannot be God.

But God is a already defined as being omnipotent, yet you imagine there are some things he is incapable of. Which paradox trumps which?

Doesn’t that prove that his [human] will and the divine will were at odds?

No.

And the rest of yBeaf’s post is pretty much the same.

Dude, this is GD, not pointless naysaying. I have provided an argument that appears to lead to a conclusion., Simply saying “No” isn’t a debate. It’s not even rational.

Do you want to actually debate this issue or are you simply going to respond to my arguments with single word non sequiturs?

Hell is the divine presence as experienced by a person who rejects it. Therefore your question makes no sense.

Well you hadn’t made that at all clear so far. That is a pretty minor theologuical viewpoint.

But anyway, I’ll rephrase to accommodate it, and to prevent you from weaselling still more.

I want the soul of a sinner in hell feel no pain at all. Can God manage that act or not?

Frankly Qbeef it’s becoming frightfully clear that you have no rational or logical position. You resolutely refuse to answer questions until you are nailed to the wall. Instead you answer questions you wish you’d been asked. It’s impossible to have a reasonable debate with someone who changes their position every time they are asked to define it. From “One will” to “Two will always in agreement” to “Two wills, not in agreement but one subjugated”.

You have also resorted to frankly ludicrous tactics of claiming that when the bible says Jesus preyed specific words they weren’t prayer. It’s impossible to have a reasonable theological debate if you insist on point blank ignoring whatis clearly written in the gospels.

Will please at the very least concede that when it says “[Jesus]knelt down and prayed… ‘not my will, but yours be done.’" That it was a fricken’ prayer.

If you can’t even do that then we can call this quits right now. It will be quite clear where you are coming from if you refuse to concede that when it says that Jesus prayed specific words that he was praying.

[Czarcasm]

Let’s try this analogy, o.k.?

If you bring me “The Penny”, I will give you a thousand dollars. Now, you might ask,“Which penny? There are millions out there! Is it even a penny from the U.S.A.?”
My answer is, there is only one penny. I personally told some people which penny it is. Now, you may ask,“Which people?”
Why, the ones who know the truth about which penny I am seeking, of course. All the other people are lying or are mistaken.

Good luck.

[Blake]

@Czarcasm

If you bring me “The Penny”, I will give you a thousand dollars. Now, you might ask,“Which penny? There are millions out there! Is it even a penny from the U.S.A.?”
My answer is, there is only one penny. I personally told some people which penny it is. Now, you may ask,“Which people?”
Why, the ones who know the truth about which penny I am seeking, of course. All the other people are lying or are mistaken.

I love that analogy.

[cosmosdan]

@Czarcasm

If he didn’t value his physical body, then what did he sacrifice? We are back to the original question and the same circular reasoning.

I don’t believe I said Jesus sacrificed anything.

Yes, you’ve seen this argument several times. That is because it’s a valid argument. If I see my child about to wander into heavy traffic, I don’t leave unsigned notes hidden under rocks that say “Beware that which might harm you-you must do the right thing!” I personally go to my child and tell him “Don’t go out into traffic! Cars will run you over and you will die!”
Choose the eternal and not the fleeting? Which eternal? Nice quoting a fictional character who spent most of his life trying to get at the truth and getting it horribly wrong most of the time, btw. “The truth is out there” indeed. If there is a “god” might it not be too much to ask that he or she point out which “truth” we should listen to?

It’s a valid question. Perhaps a valid arguement if I accept most traditional christian beliefs. I don’t.

Your analogy only makes sense if the physical is what we value most. If we are eternal soul then the temporary experience of our mortal physical lives would be closer to my kids playing with their toys and breaking their toys. No big deal, no permanent harm done.
If I advise my children they can,and often do, choose not to listen. When they discover the truth through their own experience, trail and error, it’s better for them. Wouldn’t you agree?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@cosmosdan

.I’ll take a shot at this one. Why would he preform some minor miracle? To save his life?

Why did he perform any miracles at all? Forget about saving his life, he could have proven he was God to his enemies and saved THEIR souls. Why not do it?

The quality I find in Jesus is that he lived the truth in the flesh.

Why do so many theists always speak in such abstracts? He “lived the truth in the flesh?” WTF does that mean?

That truth is that we are primarily spirit and only temporarily physical.

Cite?

Seriously…why on earth should I believe that?

That being the case he didn’t see his physical body as his life. Jesus told us not to place value in the temporary things that fade away but to value the eternal things. For him to preform some miracle to preserve his physical body would be to value the temporary more than the eternal and betray the truth he preached and lived.

Once again, the issue is not that Jesus could have saved his own life, but that he could have proven the existence of God and chose not to. Why?

I’ve seen this type of arguement on SDMB several times. If God is and cares about us then he/she would let us know. Something like that? To quote Fox Mulder “the truth is out there.”

Great. Where? Tell me where to look.

It is the nature of free will. We need only do as Christ instructed

1. How are we supposed to know what Christ instructed?
2. Why should we believe that what Christ instructed is correct?, Choose the eternal rather than the fleeting.
   [/quote]

What does it mean to “choose the eternal?” What do the terms “eternal” and fleetring" mean in this context? I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about.

When we make the fleeting our primary reality, it is not God hideing from us but the other way around.

“When we make the fleeting our primary reality?” You’ve lost me. Is that any different than just trying to be a good person?

[cosmosdan]

@Blake

I love that analogy.

You mean it makes sense to you? :dubious:

[Blake]

@cosmosdan

If I advise my children they can,and often do, choose not to listen. When they discover the truth through their own experience, trail and error, it’s better for them. Wouldn’t you agree?

No. If a child discovers through trial and error that falling out the window is painful that’s not the best way to learn not to climb out windows. Similarly if a person discovers that not believing in God lands you in hell by actually going to hell thta;s not a good idea either.
I’m having some trouble understanding what your pooint is since you apparently think that Jesus’sacrifice meant nothing and that our choice to worship or reject God has no effect at all. What exactly is your answer to the question “How did Jesus sacrifice himself”?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Czarcasm

Let’s try this analogy, o.k.?

If you bring me “The Penny”, I will give you a thousand dollars. Now, you might ask,“Which penny? There are millions out there! Is it even a penny from the U.S.A.?”
My answer is, there is only one penny. I personally told some people which penny it is. Now, you may ask,“Which people?”
Why, the ones who know the truth about which penny I am seeking, of course. All the other people are lying or are mistaken.

Good luck.

And don’t forget- if you bring me the wrong penny, I’m going to kick you in the nuts. If you choose not to look for the penny at all, I’m still going to kick you in the nuts. You can’t opt out, it’s either the reward or the kick in the nuts. Good luck.

[Blake]

@cosmosdan

You mean it makes sense to you? :dubious:

I makes perfect sense to me. It seems likehte perfect analogy for religion.

Do you mean you can’t see the obvious parralels with religion. $1000 = eternal bliss, special penny = appropriate religion to follow, people who know how to identify the true penny = people who actually were divinely inspired and so forth.

Seems pretty bloody obvious to me.

[cosmosdan]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Why did he perform any miracles at all? Forget about saving his life, he could have proven he was God to his enemies and saved THEIR souls. Why not do it?

Does that assume that salvation is belief in Jesus as our savior, or that just belief is enough? I never claimed to believe that.

Why do so many theists always speak in such abstracts? He “lived the truth in the flesh?” WTF does that mean?

I beleive I stated the answer fairly plainly.

Cite?

Seriously…why on earth should I believe that?

If you want scientific evidence I have none as we both know. If thats reason enough for you to reject it fine. Thats your free will doing it’s thing. If you want just a good reason minus hard evidence then how about the truth? You admit that there are many questions left unanswered. Can I assume you are open to having those questions answered? The truth will set you free.

Once again, the issue is not that Jesus could have saved his own life, but that he could have proven the existence of God and chose not to. Why?

Honestly I’m not sure. If I were to venture a guess perhaps it’s because the choice to believe is internal. Something unusual such as a miracle might stimulate the choice process but it doesn’t compell anyone to believe. Now I’ll hear the argument that God must know exactly what it takes for you to believe. That fits omniscient all right
“then why isn’t God doing it?”
Perhaps God is doing it. If an eternal being wanted to take a lifetime or even a few lifetimes to do that whats the big deal? Perhaps because of free will God is letting you do it in your own sweet time. {which gets my vote}

Great. Where? Tell me where to look.

That quote was inaccurate. It’s more like the truth is in there. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you.

1. How are we supposed to know what Christ instructed?

same answer as the last one.

2. Why should we believe that what Christ instructed is correct?, Choose the eternal rather than the fleeting.

Already asked, already answered.

What does it mean to “choose the eternal?” What do the terms “eternal” and fleetring" mean in this context? I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about.

And I’m still working on understanding it. I don’t think it’s hard to imagine what is eternal and what is fleeting. Don’t place your treasure in anything that moth and rust doth corrupt or that others can steal. Money and material possesions come and go. The approval of others comes and goes. Even our physical bodies come and go. Love and truth are eternal, value them above all else.
“Well dam it Jesus or God or whoever you are , I’m not even sure what love and truth really are. How can I value them above all else?”
You start by making it a priority to find out what they are.

“When we make the fleeting our primary reality?” You’ve lost me. Is that any different than just trying to be a good person?

Great question. Seriously. I know several great honorable and loving people who are on the edge of atheism. I don’t value their love and kindness any less because of that detail. Maybe it’s a question of what our potential is. How far do we take it?
There’s many ways we can choose the fleeting to be our primary reality. We face those temptations every day. If we choose money over truth or love is one way. If we choose the pleasures of the flesh over truth or love is another. The list goes on.

[cosmosdan]

@Blake

No. If a child discovers through trial and error that falling out the window is painful that’s not the best way to learn not to climb out windows. Similarly if a person discovers that not believing in God lands you in hell by actually going to hell thta;s not a good idea either.

True but I don’t believe thats the case.
If the worst thing that can happen to your child is that they learn something you don’t worry about it much.

I’m having some trouble understanding what your pooint is since you apparently think that Jesus’sacrifice meant nothing and that our choice to worship or reject God has no effect at all. What exactly is your answer to the question “How did Jesus sacrifice himself”?

I was just responding to a comment in one post. I didn’t claim that worshiping or rejecting has no effect. It’s a matter of the truth. Rejecting false notions of God is the truthful thing to do. I see it done here on SDMB and I’m glad to do it myself. Christians and others stubbornly cling to their beliefs for their own reasons. Atheists do the same.
In response to the OP and thread title I would say that the only sacrifice I see at this point is Jesus taking on flesh at all. I recognize my understanding is incomplete and I am still working on it.

[cosmosdan]

@Diogenes the Cynic

And don’t forget- if you bring me the wrong penny, I’m going to kick you in the nuts. If you choose not to look for the penny at all, I’m still going to kick you in the nuts. You can’t opt out, it’s either the reward or the kick in the nuts. Good luck.

very funny

[David_Simmons]

@andros

Did he? You assume he did, but there’s no reason to think so.

Weeellll, there is this in John 13:1

“Now before the feast of the passover, when Jeus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father …”

It’s been a long time since I read all of John but I seem to recall that gospel gives the definite impression that Jesus knew the whole script.