# How did King John spell his name... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 15, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361 "2009-12-15T15:21:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/1 "2009-12-15T15:21:48Z")
…with no J? IIRC, the letter J was not adopted into the English alphabet until much later. How did the king, or anyone named John (or Joan or James or Jules, etc.) spell his name back then? Ian? Ioan? Did Iack and Iyll go up the hill to fetch a pail of, um, vater? ---
**Author:** ![goldmund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a4c791/32.png) [@goldmund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goldmund)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/2 "2009-12-15T16:18:28Z")
> **[John (given name)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_%28first_name%29)** > > John (/dʒɒn/; JON) is a common male given name in the English language ultimately of Hebrew origin. The English form is from Middle English Ion, Ihon, Jon, Jan (mid-12c.), itself from Old French Jan, Jean, Jehan (Modern French Jean), from Medieval Latin Johannes, altered form of Late Latin Ioannes, or the Middle English personal name is directly from Medieval Latin, which is from the Greek name Ioannis (Ιωάννης), originally borne by Hellenized Jews transliterating the Hebrew name Yochana It is am... ---
**Author:** ![pan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/3 "2009-12-15T16:19:56Z")
Iohn. only it would have looked like John because I and J were the same letter but written differently based on usage. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/4 "2009-12-15T16:41:42Z")
A clear example of the contemporary spelling of his name in an official document is the opening of [the 1207 charter to the town of Cambridge](http://www.cambridge.gov.uk/public/pictures/1207-Charter-large.jpg). As [the image on this page](http://www.marxists.org/history/england/early-history/magna-carta.htm) shows, the initial letter of his name in the British Library’s better copy of Magna Carta is actually very clear, but the rest of his name is less easy to read, not least because it’s abbreviated. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/5 "2009-12-15T17:36:30Z")
one of my prized possessions is a Jackdaw on the Magna Carta. “Jackdaws” are collections of facsimiles of documents related to historical events or movements. They’re still being made, but are surprisingly expensive. I bought a number of them many years ago, when they weren’t. Nowadays they seem to be sold to schools and the like. The one on the Magna Carta now looks like this: [http://www.jackdaw.com/p-320-magna-carta.aspx](http://www.jackdaw.com/p-320-magna-carta.aspx) Mine looks the same, except it’s olive green instead of shocking magenta. One of the items (which doesn’t seem to be in the present one) was a broadsheet entitled _Did King John Lose his Treasure in The Wash?_ this refers to a not-so-famous (at least to Americans) incident involving the Crown Jewels: > [@](#): > > King John losing the Crown Jewels > > The most famous incident associated with the Wash is King John losing the Crown Jewels. According to contemporary reports, John travelled from Spalding in Lincolnshire to Bishop’s Lynn, in Norfolk, was taken ill and decided to return. While he took the longer route by way of Wisbech, he sent his baggage train, including his crown jewels, along the causeway and ford across the mouth of the Wellstream.[2] This route was usable only on the lower part of the tide. The horse-drawn wagons moved too slowly for the incoming tide, and many were lost. A report published in 2008 by British geologist Professor Simon Haslett and Australian geologist Ted Brayant, suggested the flood may have been a British tsunami,[citation needed] as it appears to be described as a fast, high, incoming tide, a description which fits a tsunami. The most likely cause of a tsunami in the Wash is an undersea landslide, as Britain experiences only limited earthquake activity. > > The present-day location of the accident is normally supposed to be somewhere near Sutton Bridge, on the River Nene. The name of the river changed as a result of redirection of the Great Ouse during the seventeenth century, and Bishop’s Lynn became King’s Lynn as a result of Henry VIII’s rearrangement of the English Church. > > Astronomical study, however, permits a reconstruction of the tide tables of the relevant day and it seems most likely, given travel in the usual daylight hours, that the loss was incurred in crossing the Welland estuary at Fosdyke. > > There is also a suspicion that John left his jewels in Lynn as security for a loan and arranged their “loss”. This looks likely to be apocryphal. However that may be, he passed the following night, that of 12 to 13 October 1216, at Swineshead Abbey, moved on to Newark-on-Trent and died of his illness on 19 October.[3] > **[The Wash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wash)** > > The Wash is a shallow natural rectangular bay and multiple estuary on the east coast of England in the United Kingdom. It is an inlet of the North Sea and is the largest multiple estuary system in the UK, as well as being the largest natural bay in England and is the outflow for the rivers Witham, Welland, Nene and the Great Ouse. It is also one of the most important places of conservation in Europe, with several nature reserves located within this area. > The coastline is partly in Lincolnshire a... But I look at that headline and get a very different mental picture. I imagine King John stumping down into the basement of the Castle in his bathrobe and bunny slippers to ask the Queen (who is standing in her robe and slippers and her hair curlers, possibly smoking a cigarette and pulling the laundry out of the washing machine, “Honey, have you seen my Treasure?” “Did you leave it in your pocket again?” the Queen asks out of the side of her mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/6 "2009-12-16T05:41:15Z")
Thanks all. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/7 "2009-12-16T11:46:50Z")
> [@APB](#): > > A clear example of the contemporary spelling of his name in an official document is the opening of [the 1207 charter to the town of Cambridge](http://www.cambridge.gov.uk/public/pictures/1207-Charter-large.jpg). > > As [the image on this page](http://www.marxists.org/history/england/early-history/magna-carta.htm) shows, the initial letter of his name in the British Library’s better copy of Magna Carta is actually very clear, but the rest of his name is less easy to read, not least because it’s abbreviated. So we know he spelled it Iohannes when writing in the official Latin, but would he have done so in (Middle) English? And in which would he be more likely to sign his name? Is it another example of standardized spelling not being that important yet? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/8 "2009-12-16T11:51:11Z")
Quite possibly he couldn’t speak English at all. Many of the previous Norman kings of England couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/9 "2009-12-16T12:05:33Z")
Has any English king been as despised as King John? Other than Stephen (another unpopular king) he is the only king never to have any successive king named after him. Most people associate him with _Robin Hood_ even though there is no evidence at all that Robin Hood lived during his rule. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/10 "2009-12-16T15:52:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > So we know he spelled it Iohannes when writing in the official Latin, but would he have done so in (Middle) English? And in which would he be more likely to sign his name? Is it another example of standardized spelling not being that important yet? Firstly, we don’t know that this is the spelling he used when writing in Latin. But then I never said that it was. All we can say is that this is the spelling used by one Chancery clerk. And that is pretty much the limit of what can be said on the subject. There is no known example of John’s handwriting, in Latin, French or English. There is even some question as to whether he was literate. (Whatever ‘literacy’ means, as reading, writing and signing one’s name were different skills.) Signatures of English kings only begin to survive from a couple of centuries later. So official documents issued in his name are the nearest substitute and those are unavoidably in Latin. English or French documents into which John might have had some direct input simply do not exist. ---
**Author:** ![pan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-king-john-spell-his-name/521361/11 "2009-12-16T16:17:30Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Most people associate him with _Robin Hood_ even though there is no evidence at all that Robin Hood lived during his rule. I’m unaware of actual evidence that Robin Hood existed at all. Well at least any more evidence than King Arthur existed.