# How did Luddites like McCoy and Phlox get such high-profile postings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 11, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715 "2021-03-11T15:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/61 "2021-03-13T02:15:58Z")
In the episode, _Amok Time_, where Spock goes to a Vulvan ceremony to meet his wife to be, he asks Kirk to stand by him. He also says, "I should also wish McCoy ", who responds, “I should be honored, Sir.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/62 "2021-03-13T02:18:32Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Interestingly, several other Constitution-class starships which appeared in the original series did have commodores in command, which suggests that they might have more commonly functioned as flag ships. In the Royal Navy, commodore is a temporary command much like an Admiral. In the US Navy, Commodore is a permanent rank, but I do not understand its signifigance. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/63 "2021-03-13T02:27:44Z")
One of my friends had a theory that the Enterprise was crewed by misfits Star Fleet wanted to be rid of. “We have more sexual harrasment complaints about Kirk than any other officer. McCoy is a misanthrope who hates everyone and a Luddite to boot. Spock is a…“1.9999999999999999 Two Spock! The answer is two!”” Lt. Commander Scott is a drunkard. Yeoman Rand is a sex maniac. Chekov is obsessed with Tsarist Russia of four hundred years ago. Uvuhra violates dress codes like a barbie doll. Let’s get rid of all of them. The Enterprise is a rust bucket that has something blow up once a week. Send 'em all off on a five year mission, and hopefully, we will never see them again. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/64 "2021-03-13T03:02:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > In the Royal Navy, commodore is a temporary command much like an Admiral. In the US Navy, Commodore is a permanent rank, but I do not understand its signifigance. There _used_ to be a rank of commodore in the U.S. Navy; it was between Captain and Rear Admiral (the lowest rank of Admiral). Decades ago the U.S. Army, Navy, and Marines rationalized their rank structure so that each had four ranks/grades of “flag” officer - generals for the Army and Marines, and Admirals for the Navy. The rank of “commodore” was replaced by the rank of “Rear Admiral (Lower Half)”. The old rank of Rear Admiral became the rank of “Rear Admiral (Upper Half).” By the time _Star Trek_ was being filmed, there were no commodores in the U.S. Navy, but the rank structure of Starfleet seemed to have been modeled on the rank structure of the USN of a couple of decades previous. According to Memory Alpha (the Star Trek fan wiki), in Starfleet a commodore is the lowest ranking flag officer. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/65 "2021-03-13T03:41:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > In the episode, _Amok Time_ , where Spock goes to a Vulvan ceremony Whoa…I don’t think I’ve seen that version of the episode. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/66 "2021-03-13T03:45:57Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > > In the episode, _Amok Time_ , where Spock goes to a Vulvan ceremony > > Whoa… I don’t think I’ve seen that version of the episode. 😃 I guess it’s time we had “The Talk” about what exactly pon farr involves… ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/67 "2021-03-13T03:53:32Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I guess it’s time we had “The Talk” about what exactly pon farr involves… - When a Daddy Vulcan and a Mommy Vulcan haven’t had any in seven years… ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse\_Chaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Eclipse\_Chaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse_Chaser)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/68 "2021-03-13T08:39:44Z")
You did that deliberately didn’t you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/69 "2021-03-13T08:58:38Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > I believe Kirk’s Enterprise only had a flag officer onboard twice. Once was when the Enterprise rescued Commodore Matthew Decker after his own ship was crippled by the Planet Killer doomsday weapon; Decker relieved Kirk of command when he believed Kirk wasn’t being aggressive enough in attempting to destroy the Planet Killer. The other time they were simply transporting Commodore Stocker to his new posting (no staff were with him), and he assumed command when Kirk was incapacitated on an away mission. In “Court Martial” the flag officers running Kirk’s trial came on board, though only briefly. Admirals, by the way, who weren’t idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/70 "2021-03-13T09:03:43Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The problem came when _The Next Generation_ made a real effort to put the technology of ˆ _Star Trek_ on a relatively consistent technobabble basis, and then writers started trying to use technical solutions to solve plot problems, often inventing new technologies on the fly that would have been really useful on their own but were completely forgotten about by the next episode. Suddenly, everybody who knows anything about physics realizes what nonsense it is, and anyone who understands good writing calls such efforts out as ‘cheating’ in terms of plot resolution. It is much better to just treat the technology as essentially magical to facilitate the setting, and then have character-driven stories with resolutions involving the characters making hard choices and sacrifices, so to put characters in peril on a weekly basis they would actually have to kill a character off once in a while, which is something episodic television is wont to do. Right, and compare and contrast these to the technical solution of “The Doomsday Machine” episode which was elegant, easy to understand, and didn’t involve any technobabble. BTW the Enterprise’s orbit decayed, when it was unpowered in a matter of hours, not months. Days at the most. You didn’t need to be a rocket scientist to know that was bullshit even in 1966. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/71 "2021-03-13T09:51:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW the Enterprise’s orbit decayed, when it was unpowered in a matter of hours, not months. Days at the most. You didn’t need to be a rocket scientist to know that was bullshit even in 1966. Bear in mind that I know almost nothing about orbital mechanics… but maybe if you had a ship with effectively limitless maneuvering capabilities like the Enterprise, you wouldn’t even bother to enter a stable orbit to begin with. Just get roughly where you want and fire up the impulse engines if you get too close to atmosphere. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/72 "2021-03-13T11:33:49Z")
Someone suggested in another thread that they are manuvering in an “orbit” to remain in communicator and transport position for a landing party. And no, I didn’t save my Vulcan edit. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/73 "2021-03-13T15:40:38Z")
If I’m not mistaken, all flag officers\* choose a ship as their flagship even if they have a shore assignment. From the stories my grandfather told me of serving in the pre-WW2 navy. The USS Arizona was a flagship because it was chosen by CINCPAC although the Admiral never sailed on her because his job was sailing a desk. As such, we could retcon that Commodore April chose the Enterprise as his flagship although he never used it because his missions (ambassador-at-large) did not correspond to the mission of the ship (exploration). \*In the United States Navy ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/74 "2021-03-13T17:54:02Z")
I was misremembering “The Deadly Years”. And of course, the ship you sound out into the unknown to seek out new life and new civilizations isn’t going to be a good choice for flagship. On the other hand, this > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > As such, we could retcon that Commodore April chose the Enterprise as his flagship although he never used it because his missions (ambassador-at-large) did not correspond to the mission of the ship (exploration). makes a lot of sense. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > In the Royal Navy, commodore is a temporary command much like an Admiral. In the US Navy, Commodore is a permanent rank, but I do not understand its signifigance. Commodore was once a rank in the US navy, the lowest of the flag ranks - but now has been replaced by “rear admiral (lower half)” but commodore still exists as a job for senior captains with particular responsibilities (reading the wiki page suggests that “Commodore” as rank has been disestablished and reestablished several times. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/75 "2021-03-13T18:09:16Z")
[sidenote:] > [@gdave](#): > > > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > > In the Royal Navy, commodore is a temporary command much like an Admiral. In the US Navy, Commodore is a permanent rank, but I do not understand its signifigance. > > There _used_ to be a rank of commodore in the U.S. Navy; it was between Captain and Rear Admiral (the lowest rank of Admiral). Decades ago the U.S. Army, Navy, and Marines rationalized their rank structure so that each had four ranks/grades of “flag” officer - generals for the Army and Marines, and Admirals for the Navy. The rank of “commodore” was replaced by the rank of “Rear Admiral (Lower Half)”. The old rank of Rear Admiral became the rank of “Rear Admiral (Upper Half).” > > By the time _Star Trek_ was being filmed, there were no commodores in the U.S. Navy, but the rank structure of Starfleet seemed to have been modeled on the rank structure of the USN of a couple of decades previous. More to the point, when TOS was being written, the writers were of a generation to remember the _WW2 US Navy_ rank structure that _ **did** _ use Commodore as the one-star flag rank. Quickly: Up until the Civil War the US Navy used Commodore as the name of its highest command appointment, but it was not until the Civil War itself that distinct ranks of flag officer were created. It was disestablished as a rank after the Spanish-American War and the Navy adopted everyone else’s regular progression of Captan to Rear Admiral, but adding the “halves” of the Rear Admiral rank _for purposes of pay seniority_ – and unlike the Royal Navy where the Commodore is a command appointment _but_ uses a unique insignia, during that period both halves of the US Rear Admirals used the same insignia regardless of pay grade or command, making it so technically from 1899 to 1942 and 1948-82 there was no “one-star” Navy _rank_ though there was the lower _pay grade_. Then in WW2 due to the needs from extreme expansion of the Navy the actual rank of one-star Commodore was re-established; after the war it reverted to statu-quo-ante. When in 1982 DOD decided on making the one-star Navy flag grade permanently an actual fixed rank with its own insignia, they called it “Commodore Admiral” for a year and a half until they settled on using Rear Admiral Lower Half for good, giving it the WW2 Commodore insignia. [/sidenote] ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/76 "2021-03-13T18:15:02Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > I believe Kirk’s Enterprise only had a flag officer onboard twice. Once was when the Enterprise rescued Commodore Matthew Decker after his own ship was crippled by the Planet Killer doomsday weapon; Decker relieved Kirk of command when he believed Kirk wasn’t being aggressive enough in attempting to destroy the Planet Killer. The other time they were simply transporting Commodore Stocker to his new posting (no staff were with him), and he assumed command when Kirk was incapacitated on an away mission. Commodore Mendez during the 2 part Menagerie arc, except that he wasn’t actually there. Back to the tech thang. Am I the only one who is completely underwhelmed by the way the techs are _used_ in pretty much all the series? Someone is killed; shouldn’t you immediately beam them into the transporter and do “transporter” surgery on the pattern in the buffer (red shirt’s heart gets blown out; simply load in the heart pattern + surrounding tissues, beam him back out, good as new). How isn’t everyone effectively immortal, by the time of Kirk era at least, via any of several different suggested or established means, the one I mentioned or via McCoy’s Patented Magic Kidney Regrowing Pills? And don’t me started on personal weapons. Phasers which tactically operate the same as old six-shooters? Bah, how quaint. Give me hunter seeker rounds which can quickly manuever around obstacles at very high speeds with mini-cams in the nose, hologram-generators which either displace my image or hide it from the enemy, or just personal deflector shields (like the Borg have, or stronger versions of the animated series’ life support belts). I also have a hard time getting my mind around how, exactly, such a weapon can make a person completely vanish into a cloud of atoms in a near-instant; isn’t it more likely such a weapon at such a power setting would simply blow a hole through the target? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/77 "2021-03-13T18:18:15Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I also have a hard time getting my mind around how, exactly, such a weapon can make a person completely vanish into a cloud of atoms in a near-instant; isn’t it more likely such a weapon at such a power setting would simply blow a hole through the target? - Why do you think it’s called a _ **phase** _r? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/78 "2021-03-13T18:27:32Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Phasers which tactically operate the same as old six-shooters? Bah, how quaint. Give me hunter seeker rounds which can quickly manuever around obstacles at very high speeds with mini-cams in the nose, hologram-generators which either displace my image or hide it from the enemy, or just personal deflector shields (like the Borg have, or stronger versions of the animated series’ life support belts). I also have a hard time getting my mind around how, exactly, such a weapon can make a person completely vanish into a cloud of atoms in a near-instant; isn’t it more likely such a weapon at such a power setting would simply blow a hole through the target? As to the last, we the audience don’t actually know what a phaser is. There are various non-canon sources that have attempted a coherent explanation, but as @Stranger_On_A_Train pointed out upthread, those just make the problems worse. If you just accept that it’s Clarke’s Law-level technology, it works. As to the first part, I think The Original Series actually handled it much better than subsequent series. In TOS, personal phasers and disrupters aren’t weapons, they’re plot devices. If someone has one out, the fight is already over. I may be misremembering, but I don’t think anyone ever missed with one in TOS. There were a couple of instances of targets that were resistant, but for the most part, they were one-shot-one-kill devices. One of the side-effects of treating phasers that way was that there were a _lot_ of episodes of TOS where the crew got into fights but were unable to use personal phasers for one reason or another (captured and put into gladiatorial games by aliens, under cover, captured and put into gladiatorial games by aliens, it would cause a diplomatic incident, captured and put into gladiatorial games by aliens, on shore leave and/or it’s just a brawl and weapons would be literal overkill, captured and put into gladiatorial games by aliens, the Prime Directive, captured and put into gladiatorial games by aliens…). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/79 "2021-03-13T19:16:30Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I also have a hard time getting my mind around how, exactly, such a weapon can make a person completely vanish into a cloud of atoms in a near-instant; isn’t it more likely such a weapon at such a power setting would simply blow a hole through the target? By the time of _Star Trek: Enterprise_, they just burned a big cauterized hole in you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715/80 "2021-03-13T20:00:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Bear in mind that I know almost nothing about orbital mechanics… but maybe if you had a ship with effectively limitless maneuvering capabilities like the Enterprise, you wouldn’t even bother to enter a stable orbit to begin with. Just get roughly where you want and fire up the impulse engines if you get too close to atmosphere. But there is no reason, given transporter range, to get so close. There is no advantage and, as we’ve seen, some risk. I don’t remember this ever being a plot point in TNG. Being in communication with the landing party does make sense, but that’s what Clarke orbits are for. They never show the Enterprise in one, of course - not as photogenic, I assume. I know there was some kind of science advisor. But if he got paid, he didn’t earn his money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-luddites-like-mccoy-and-phlox-get-such-high-profile-postings/937715.md?page=5)