# How did MMA become a major sport? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 30, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294 "2009-08-30T22:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/21 "2009-08-31T17:08:36Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > I have nothing against MMA, but this is simply not true. MMA is not everywhere. You have to already know where it is or explicitly hunt for it. > > I just checked my Sunday and Monday papers and there isn’t a single word about the fight this weekend. There is coverage of NFL, College, and High School football. There is golf coverage, a preview for the U.S. Open tennis tournament, the Little League World Series, and women’s college soccer. No MMA. For a few reasons, print media seems to be last on the bandwagon. That said, there were articles about the fights in both of my major newspapers here in Chicago. But the major reason it has exploded is new media: ESPN covers the fights, CNNSI has regular MMA articles–not just recaps, but ongoing coverage, Yahoo has a whole UFC section, etc. Coverage has exploded. As for UFC approaching boxing’s golden age, it’s just not going to happen. It’s a different time, different era. Everything is a niche these days. Even if MMA grows to exceed everyone’s wildest expectations, it still won’t be what boxing was just because of the time that it exists in. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/22 "2009-08-31T17:13:09Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > How much longer is your lifetime? I’m only 28, so barring any accidents or deadly diseases, I could have another half-century in me. A lot can change in that time. 37 and I expect to live much longer, and I am totally confident I will never be sending you that $1000. But I stand by it. MMA doesn’t have to achieve what boxing did to be a success. Heck, if it stayed as popular as it is NOW, you would have to consider it a remarkably successful enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/23 "2009-08-31T17:15:04Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Regulation . . .. This, IMO. I’m 48, and was a huge Rickson fan before Royce dominated the early UFC. After the initial “Battle of the Arts” premise, NHB seemed to market itself as unregulated and dangerous. IMO the internal promulgation of rules and willingness to be regulated led to the popularity we see today. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/24 "2009-08-31T17:40:08Z")
> [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](#): > > A lot of people make the claim that the first Bonnar v Griffin fight in The Ultimate Fighter 1 finale as the turning point for MMA, specifically the UFC. It was an incredible fight and ratings skyrocketed; Spike TV subsequently picked up regular UFC programming. Or so the story goes. _The Ultimate Fighter_ was originally picked up by Spike TV just to fill in the timeslot following _WWE Raw_. They guessed correctly, and it turned out that not only was there a huge potential market among wrestling fans for MMA, there was also a huge potential market among 18-34 year-old male non-wrestling fans. When the WWE and Viacom fell out, and WWE programming moved, Spike added more UFC programming and the fledgling NWA:TNA pro wrestling promotion. In a sense, UFC owes much of its current ascendancy to professional wrestling- WWE in particular. Ken Shamrock received massive mainstream exposure in the WWF/WWE, and the 2004 Shamrock-Ortiz fight garnered the UFC’s biggest buyrate ever by a mile (at that time). Dan Severn and Brock Lesnar also became household names (or at least better known) as professional wrestlers, which raised the profile of UFC. > [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > I don’t think it’s as mainstream as the OP suggests. The fights are shown on offbeat channels like Spike and Versus, not ESPN. It is barely covered at all on Sportscenter, the preeminent sports news show. The fights barely receive a mention in newspapers, if they do it’s a blurb, not a story. Track & field events are barely mentioned on SportsCenter outside the Olympics. So what? SportsCenter is heavily weighted to the “big four” US ball sports (and NASCAR, more recently), and barely covers lots of equally popular ones. Anything that happens overseas is right out, naturally. > [@Cisco](#): > > Boxing never even dreamed it could be as big as MMA will be. MMA never dreams it will be as big as boxing was. Muhammad Ali was the most famous athlete (in the US _and_ globally) of the last century, and Mike Tyson is somewhere in the top ten. Do you genuinely believe that whoever is UFC champion in 2044 will be the most famous sportsman in the world? Of course not. [QUOTE=RickJay] I will say this though; the evidence strongly suggests that MMA is, in fact, hurting pro wrestling as well as boxing. The WWE, while being quiet about it, is seeing substantial revenue declines. Clearly, many fans are switching from theatre to sport. [/QUOTE] I would hesitate to ascribe that to the ascendancy of MMA. Professional wrestling has always gone in and out of fashion. Hulk Hogan had Saturday morning cartoons and a bunch of major motion picture appearances in the late 80s, yet Titansports (then the parent company of the WWF) was nearly bankrupt by 1995. Stars come and go; some catch the public imagination, and some don’t. The current crop just don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/25 "2009-08-31T17:45:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Do you genuinely believe that whoever is UFC champion in 2044 will be the most famous sportsman in the world? Yeah, I think it’s very possible. MMA’s appeal is both global and universal. If Europe and Mexico emerge as the huge markets I think they will, forget about it. Only soccer will be bigger, and its individual stars won’t be, because it’s a team sport. And I forgot that the Philippines is a huge emerging market for MMA. Twelfth largest country in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/26 "2009-08-31T17:49:13Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yeah, I think it’s very possible. MMA’s appeal is both global and universal. If Europe and Mexico emerge as the huge markets I think they will, forget about it. Only soccer will be bigger, and its individual stars won’t be, because it’s a team sport. > > And I forgot that the Philippines is a huge emerging market for MMA. Twelfth largest country in the world. Even assuming that MMA catches on in all the places boxing does- which I consider unlikely, at best- the simple fact is that the modern sports marketplace does not allow for the sort of ascendancy we saw in boxing’s golden age. Between the internet and the widespread ownership of televisions, no star can shine as brightly as Ali’s once did. It’s worth noting that in what will be the two biggest markets of all- India and China- MMA isn’t even a blip on the radar. ETA: If there’s a good analog for the current MMA fad, it’s televised poker. It got huge, then got annoying, and now it’s time-filler programming for ESPN and the Travel Channel with a devoted but limited following. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/27 "2009-08-31T18:19:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Even assuming that MMA catches on in all the places boxing does- which I consider unlikely, at best- the simple fact is that the modern sports marketplace does not allow for the sort of ascendancy we saw in boxing’s golden age. Between the internet and the widespread ownership of televisions, no star can shine as brightly as Ali’s once did. > > It’s worth noting that in what will be the two biggest markets of all- India and China- MMA isn’t even a blip on the radar. > > ETA: If there’s a good analog for the current MMA fad, it’s televised poker. It got huge, then got annoying, and now it’s time-filler programming for ESPN and the Travel Channel with a devoted but limited following. You are drastically underestimating the universal appeal. Everyone who would’ve been a boxing fan plus a lot more are or will be MMA fans. I doubt you have any sort of grasp on the demographics I see at pay per view parties. Young, old, black, white, hispanic, sports fans, NON-sports fans (a very important one), lawyers, secretaries, bankers, blue collar workers . . . [edit: I forgot to add _females_, another hugely important one. I’ve never seen so many females know what exactly what they’re talking about when discussing another sport.] People did not play poker thousands of years ago. People will not play poker thousands of years from now. Humans have always and will always test themselves in hand to hand contests. And just because it’s not a blip on the radar in India and China _yet_, doesn’t mean it won’t be. You can bet your ass that if and when it becomes an Olympic sport, China will be all over it. By the way, how big are [American] football, baseball, hockey, and Nascar in India and China? ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/28 "2009-08-31T18:19:59Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > And I forgot that the Philippines is a huge emerging market for MMA. Twelfth largest country in the world. The biggest star in the Philippines is a boxer (Manny Pacquiao), and we all know that boxing isn’t doing that great, so that would lead me to think Filipino interest in the sport isn’t all that important. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/29 "2009-08-31T18:24:27Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > The biggest star in the Philippines is a boxer (Manny Pacquiao), and we all know that boxing isn’t doing that great, so that would lead me to think Filipino interest in the sport isn’t all that important. Could a conclusion be reached any more tenuously? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/30 "2009-08-31T18:32:01Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You are drastically underestimating the universal appeal. Everyone who would’ve been a boxing fan plus a lot more are or will be MMA fans. I doubt you have any sort of grasp on the demographics I see at pay per view parties. I’ve been to a dozen UFC pay-per-view parties at bars and private residences- I have a pretty clear grasp of who the sport’s fanbase is. It’s a fad. > [@](#): > > People did not play poker thousands of years ago. People will not play poker thousands of years from now. Humans have always and will always test themselves in hand to hand contests. And just because it’s not a blip on the radar in India and China _yet_, doesn’t mean it won’t be. You can bet your ass that if and when it becomes an Olympic sport, China will be all over it. For all that “humans have always tested themselves in hand to hand contests”, boxing’s star has been on the wane for twenty years. Kickboxing, full-contact karate and other single-discipline martial arts have never been anything other than niche sports outside the Far East. MMA will, in the end, be no different. In any case, your point about how people have always tested themselves in such a way is meaningless; you’re talking about participation, which has little to no bearing on viewership. > [@](#): > > By the way, how big are [American] football, baseball, hockey, and Nascar in India and China? They’re virtually nonexistent, as most American-based sports are in most of the world. One more reason to think MMA isn’t going anywhere. ETA: For the record, I’ve been watching the UFC since about 1996 and consider myself a fan. That doesn’t change the fact that it will never be the world’s biggest sport- or even in the top ten. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/31 "2009-08-31T18:45:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’ve been to a dozen UFC pay-per-view parties at bars and private residences- I have a pretty clear grasp of who the sport’s fanbase is. It’s a fad. I’ve been to a dozen a year for the last 5 years. I guarantee you it’s not a fad. Tell you what, the poker craze lasted, what, 5 years, if that? Let’s pretend MMA started now, even though it’s been very popular for over a decade. If the SDMB is still around in 5 years, and MMA is more popular than it is today, will you agree it’s not a fad? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They’re virtually nonexistent, as most American-based sports are in most of the world. One more reason to think MMA isn’t going anywhere. It’s pretty hard to say MMA is “American-based.” The UFC was started by Brazillians. Three of the UFC’s 5 champs aren’t American and don’t even live in the US. The widely-considered best fighter on the planet is Russian and lives in Russia. The hottest up-and-comer is Armernian and lives in the Netherlands, virtually all of the UFC’s largest competitors are based in other countries, and MMA is just as popular in Japan and Korea as it is here. You seem to be confusing “UFC” with “MMA”. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/32 "2009-08-31T18:46:45Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Could a conclusion be reached any more tenuously? You apparently think that increased support in the Philippines is significant. Yet the current huge popularity of boxing in the Philippines has had little to no effect on the health of that sport. Why would it be any more significant for MMA? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/33 "2009-08-31T18:50:12Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > You apparently think that increased support in the Philippines is significant. Yet the current huge popularity of boxing in the Philippines has had little to no effect on the health of that sport. Why would it be any more significant for MMA? You’re saying that because one fighter (a lightweight no less, in a sport where heavyweights rule) cannot prop up the entire sport of boxing, the Philippines isn’t an important market for MMA. Makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/34 "2009-08-31T18:51:31Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I’ve been to a dozen a year for the last 5 years. I guarantee you it’s not a fad. Tell you what, the poker craze lasted, what, 5 years, if that? Let’s pretend MMA started now, even though it’s been very popular for over a decade. If the SDMB is still around in 5 years, and MMA is more popular than it is today, will you agree it’s not a fad? Certainly. > [@](#): > > It’s pretty hard to say MMA is “American-based.” The UFC was started by Brazillians. Three of the UFC’s 5 champs aren’t American and don’t even live in the US. The widely-considered best fighter on the planet is Russian and lives in Russia. The hottest up-and-comer is Armernian and lives in the Netherlands, virtually all of the UFC’s largest competitors are based in other countries, and MMA is just as popular in Japan and Korea as it is here. > > You seem to be confusing “UFC” with “MMA”. ‘US plus Japan and Korea’ is pretty much the global footprint of baseball. It may not be an American sport _per se_ but the money is certainly here. Where are the fights? Nearly always here. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/35 "2009-08-31T18:55:59Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I could never figure out why boxing put all their big matches on PPV , making people pay $50 to see them. Yes, when young I loved watching boxing back in the “Wide World of Sports” days when it was free broadcast (Marvin Hagler was robbed, I tell you, robbed!). There is no way for young people to have any accessibility to the sport now if too young to go to bars or earn the reather large chunk of money it takes to subscribe to the PPV events. Sports fans are hooked and developed when young, IMO, and a miniscule few will ever become fresh fans to a sport after adulthood. Boxing shot itself in the foot. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/36 "2009-08-31T18:59:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ‘US plus Japan and Korea’ is pretty much the global footprint of baseball. It may not be an American sport _per se_ but the money is certainly here. Where are the fights? Nearly always here. Except when they’re not. The UFC has already been to Canada, Japan, Germany, UK, Ireland, Brazil, and has plans to go to the Philippines and Mexico in the near future. Bodog has held major events in Russia. Pride held events in Japan and the US. There are smaller shows all over Canada, Brazil, Korea, Australia, and UK. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but by reading your posts I don’t think you know anything at all about MMA outside the UFC. It’s already far bigger than you think and growing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/37 "2009-08-31T19:07:50Z")
You seem to be missing the point. Having one or two events in country X does not mean your sport is more than a novelty there. There are skateboarding contests in almost every country in the world. Do you think that says anything about the popularity of skateboarding as a spectator sport? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/38 "2009-08-31T19:19:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You seem to be missing the point. Having one or two events in country X does not mean your sport is more than a novelty there. There are skateboarding contests in almost every country in the world. Do you think that says anything about the popularity of skateboarding as a spectator sport? You’re still assuming UFC = MMA. But since you’re hung up on the UFC, they’ve been to the UK 7 times in the last 2 years, attracting up to 16,000 in attendance at a time. That’s not “one or two events in country x,” that’s the solid beginnings of penetration into one of the world’s largest markets. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/39 "2009-08-31T19:50:08Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re still assuming UFC = MMA. How do you figure? I used _your_ examples. > [@](#): > > But since you’re hung up on the UFC, they’ve been to the UK 7 times in the last 2 years, attracting up to 16,000 in attendance at a time. That’s not “one or two events in country x,” that’s the solid beginnings of penetration into one of the world’s largest markets. 7 times in two years isn’t solid penetration. Truly _major_ sports sell out 50 shows a year. All those 7 shows tell you is that there are at least 50,000 hardcore UFC fans in the UK. That’s 0.001% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294/40 "2009-08-31T19:53:55Z")
It’s .08-- not that that matters much-- we don’t know how many watched it on tv or bars, or couldn’t get tickets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-mma-become-a-major-sport/508294.md?page=3)