# How did people used to survive amputatons by surgeons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 1, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016 "2006-09-01T00:01:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![nemminie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@nemminie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nemminie)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/1 "2006-09-01T00:01:21Z")
When amputation surgery was a matter of holding the patient down with something to bite on and sawing through the limb as fast as possible, many patients survived. Why did everyone not die from loss of blood? Tourniquet - must be removed soon, or else tissue below the ligature starts to die. Cautery - can burning really seal an artery until natural healing has taken over? Pressure padding - only slows bleeding. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/2 "2006-09-01T00:07:08Z")
I can give you a partial answer I got from a lecture years ago. One factor was the element of speed. Just before an amputation took place in an operating theater the students would pull out their watches. One surgeon got so involved in an amputation that he inadvertanly also removed a couple of his own fingers. It was not unusual to remove a limb in 20 to 40 seconds. This is what I remember from the lecture. Who wants to pick it up from there? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/3 "2006-09-01T00:09:10Z")
Luck. Also keep in mind that the reason speed was so important is the patient was awake and painkillers consisted of getting him/her as drunk as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/4 "2006-09-01T00:51:19Z")
I believe that aboard ship, you could seal the site with tar. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/5 "2006-09-01T01:07:09Z")
[QUOTE=EJsGirl] I believe that aboard ship, you could seal the site with tar. [/QUOTE] You didn’t have to be on a ship to use tar, you know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/6 "2006-09-01T01:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Tourniquet - must be removed soon, or else tissue below the ligature starts to die. If I’m not mistaken, they put the tourniquet as close as possible to the cut. There wasn’t anything below the tourniquet you wanted to keep. At any rate, that’s how it’s described in books I’ve read, most notably the Hornblower novel “Ship of the Line”. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/7 "2006-09-01T01:23:00Z")
I seem to recall that that would cut off the blood flow with a tourniquet before surgery, but once they’d severed the limb they would tie off just the artery itself with thread. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/8 "2006-09-01T01:35:33Z")
Steven G. Friedman’s _A History of Vascular Surgery_, is a book-length treatise on this subject. > [@](#): > > The premodern history of vascular surgery concluded with the contributions of the greatest surgeon of the Renaissance, Ambroise Paré. Paré established the ligature as an effective treatment of hemorrhage. . . . From 1536 to 1545, Paré acquired great experience in military surgery during the Italian campaigns. Although the ligature had been described more than two centuries earlier, Paré’s greatest undertaking was reintroducing it as the preferred treatment for blood vessels. Paré discouraged the use of boiling oil [as a cautery] after his supply was exhausted during a particularly fierce battle. Paré also disdained the application of a hot iron [as a cautery] and treatment of wounds with a bandage only. He was gratified to discover improved results with the ligature. In 1552, inspired by Galen’s description of the ligature, Paré first used it for hemostasis [arrest of bleeding]. His patient was a military officer requiring lower-extremity amputation owing to wounds suffered in Damivilliers. Paré used a surgical clamps on the blood vessels during the ligature. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/9 "2006-09-01T01:56:34Z")
If you want to follow up and get a good read on the subject of surgery, I recommed [The Century Of The Surgeon](http://www.americanscientist.org/template/ScientistNightstandTypeDetail/assetid/29281;jsessionid=baa6gWCz81) by Jurgen Thorwald. From the cite: > [@](#): > > \*\*Name one book in your discipline that you would you recommend for scientists outside your field. \*\* > The Century of the Surgeon, by Jurgen Thorwald, because it is a semi-fictionalized and very accurate history of some of the great moments and men of surgery. It is beautifully written, absorbing and makes a reader want to learn more. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/10 "2006-09-01T02:37:26Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] If I’m not mistaken, they put the tourniquet as close as possible to the cut. There wasn’t anything below the tourniquet you wanted to keep. At any rate, that’s how it’s described in books I’ve read, most notably the Hornblower novel “Ship of the Line”. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure if anyone had any amputations during “Ship of the Line” (well, not counting one particular one, but I don’t think we’re counting French cannonballs as surgical instruments here). I believe there WAS an amputation done during “Beat to Quarters” after a cannon fell on someone’s legs, and “Flying Colours” may have had an amputation described (they did go into great detail regarding ligatures and fitting an amputee’s leg stump for a peg, even going so far as to describe the smell of a ligature ready to be removed. Let’s just say that whole scene made me shift uncomfortably when I read it :eek: ) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/11 "2006-09-01T05:55:04Z")
I recall in one of my classes a description of amputations during the Civil War. I think it came up because one of the famous microbiologists we were talking about got his start hacking off legs on the battlefield, and he became very very good at it. Well, he got good at doing it quickly - survival was still tricky. Anyway, when it got really busy, he’d keep a few shovels in a fire to keep them hot enough to cauterize, then use those to take off the legs at the knee or hip. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/12 "2006-09-01T05:59:09Z")
[QUOTE=Doug Bowe] . One surgeon got so involved in an amputation that he inadvertanly also removed a couple of his own fingers. [/QUOTE] :eek: Details, details, please! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/13 "2006-09-01T06:41:12Z")
[QUOTE=Raguleader] I’m not sure if anyone had any amputations during “Ship of the Line” (well, not counting one particular one, but I don’t think we’re counting French cannonballs as surgical instruments here). I believe there WAS an amputation done during “Beat to Quarters” after a cannon fell on someone’s legs, and “Flying Colours” may have had an amputation described (they did go into great detail regarding ligatures and fitting an amputee’s leg stump for a peg, even going so far as to describe the smell of a ligature ready to be removed. Let’s just say that whole scene made me shift uncomfortably when I read it :eek: ) [/QUOTE] Is the scene being referred to Bush’s amputation? That was definetly him when they were talking about a peg being fitted. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/14 "2006-09-01T12:29:14Z")
Remember the movie “Misery”? Annie Wilkes chops off Paul Sheldon’s foot and then cauterizes it with a blowtorch. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/15 "2006-09-01T17:06:47Z")
[QUOTE=Smeghead] I recall in one of my classes a description of amputations during the Civil War. I think it came up because one of the famous microbiologists we were talking about got his start hacking off legs on the battlefield, and he became very very good at it. Well, he got good at doing it quickly - survival was still tricky. Anyway, when it got really busy, he’d keep a few shovels in a fire to keep them hot enough to cauterize, then use those to take off the legs at the knee or hip. [/QUOTE] Survival from any but the most minor surgery was problematic at any time. However, the recovery rate in the Civil War was atrocious. Anesthesia had been in use for quite a while so that surgeons could do extensive surgery but antiseptic methods were still a couple of years in the future. Many patients had pretty good surgical work done on wounds only to die of infection resulting from bacteria introduced by the surgeon. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-people-used-to-survive-amputatons-by-surgeons/371016/16 "2006-09-01T17:38:20Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Is the scene being referred to Bush’s amputation? That was definetly him when they were talking about a peg being fitted. [/QUOTE] I remember quite clearly the doctor (or whoever) giving the strings from the ligatures an experimental tug every so often until they came out. And the smell of “laudable pus”, as opposed to gangrene I suppose.