# how did "school prayer" work? why isn't it done as spontaneous civil disobedience? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 5, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012 "2010-06-05T02:42:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monstera\_deliciosa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monstera_deliciosa/32/109_2.png) [@Monstera\_deliciosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstera_deliciosa)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/21 "2010-06-05T10:28:33Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > And to complete the gentle correction, Roman Catholics _do_ say the “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory…” lines when the prayer is said as part of Mass, but not when saying it as a private or group prayer at other times. And in spite of nine years of Catholic school and three years of CCD, I don’t rememer learning why! Through 12 years of Catholic school, including at least a monthly Mass, (in the adjacent parish church, not an auditorium) I never once heard those lines uttered. And I would have noticed, as a someone coming from a Baptist household, who was taught those lines, and found the R.C. omission of them weird. (This was in N.Y. in the 60s and 70s, for reference.) ETA: I think the lines might have been used in a version of the “Our Father” that was occasionally sung in church or school functions as a hymn, but not in the usual spoken prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/22 "2010-06-05T10:36:51Z")
> [@GameHat](#): > > So just leave the fucking religion out of all state institutions, including (and especially) schools, where the attendants are young and probably aren’t ready to maturely assert their independence. Is there a better time to indoctrinate then when they’re young? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/23 "2010-06-05T11:28:22Z")
> [@Monstera\_deliciosa](#): > > Through 12 years of Catholic school, including at least a monthly Mass, (in the adjacent parish church, not an auditorium) I never once heard those lines uttered. And I would have noticed, as a someone coming from a Baptist household, who was taught those lines, and found the R.C. omission of them weird. (This was in N.Y. in the 60s and 70s, for reference.) The words are said at Mass shortly after the Our Father, with a short prayer by the priest in between. Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ. All: For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/24 "2010-06-05T11:29:48Z")
> [@Monstera\_deliciosa](#): > > Through 12 years of Catholic school, including at least a monthly Mass, (in the adjacent parish church, not an auditorium) I never once heard those lines uttered. And I would have noticed, as a someone coming from a Baptist household, who was taught those lines, and found the R.C. omission of them weird. (This was in N.Y. in the 60s and 70s, for reference.) Look under “Liturgy of the Eucharist - Communion Rite” on [this page.](http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm) It’s easy enough to miss, since it’s separated from the rest of the prayer by a line read only by the priest. Also, the wording is different from the most common version used by English-speaking Protestants - “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours” as opposed to “For thine is the kingdom…”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/25 "2010-06-05T11:48:57Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > They’re not. There is no prohibition against praying in schools, no matter how often the right claims there is. (See Constitution, Amendment 1, freedom of religion) > > What there _is_ a prohibition against is the school (and even then, only public schools, as extension of the government) mandating or organizing such prayer. (See Constitution, separation of church and state clause (congress shall pass no law establishing religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof)). > > Lots of folks try to rile up religious types by deliberately misstating this as a “prohibition against praying in schools.” It’s not just the right that says that. I’ve seen quite liberal people do it because they honestly don’t understand the law. Very few people seem to take the time to spell out the nuances. I know once that a student led a prayer amongst his school friends in a lunch room, and there was a big brouhaha. They tried to equate it with the one where they use the announcements to do it (which counts as official communication, and thus is forbidden.) It wasn’t people on the right doing this. So while there may be some malice on the right, there is ignorance on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/26 "2010-06-05T12:03:05Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It’s still going on, as far as a few years ago. It seemed to become a lot more popular post-9/11. Ah missed this. Yes it’s still going on, and I see no problem with it. There’s no way coming in before anyone is there and praying comes across as being sponsored by the school. And really, no matter how much you dislike it, the freedoms of assembly, religion, and speech cover public displays of religion. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/27 "2010-06-05T13:01:09Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Ignorance fought. Besides, these two lines are added by the priest during catholic masses. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/28 "2010-06-05T15:03:32Z")
In New York in the 1950s, there was a state approved nondenominational school prayer: “Our father, we acknowledge our dependence on thee. We ask your blessings upon us, our parent, our teachers, and our country. Amen.” We recited this every day before class, along with the Pledge of Allegiance. I’m sure it was developed by a panel on clergy in order to make it as nondenominational as possible (New York had to please both Christians and Jews). I don’t recall a lot of protests when it was ended – the prayer was too bland for anyone to bother fighting for it. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/29 "2010-06-05T15:13:28Z")
i do recall media accounts that there is some lingering teacher or coach leading prayers at sporting events asking for victory. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/30 "2010-06-05T15:17:38Z")
I think you also have to remember back in the “day,” so to speak, you didn’t really think about things with such meaning. For instance, every day in kindergarten the teacher would arrive at 9am. She’d walk to her desk and tap it with a ruler. All of us kids sat up, faced her and sat with our hands folded. Then she pointed to the flag, we got up said the “Pledge of Allegence,” and then sang “My Country Tis Of Thee” Then we said “Good Morning Mrs Hitler” (Not her real name :D) The thing was, I never once thought about the meaning of it. It was just a routine we went through. I never thought of it as good or bad, I just thought of it as another exercise. Like making a proper ZERO or Number 8. I think with prayers there was never a lot of meaning behind any of it to kids. I recall in the 90s I had a part time job in a Catholic Hospital answering phones in the ER. Before I got the job, the nun who interviewed me told me, “We have meetings and before each meeting we pray. You will be expected to bow your head, you don’t have to believe but you must sit quietly and go along with it.” It never bothered me, it was just a routine with no meaning behind it, at least for me ---
**Author:** ![Thin\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@Thin\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thin_Ice)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/31 "2010-06-05T15:28:06Z")
Possibly it’s faulty memory on my part, but I remember no religious content in any of the Florida public school rituals I participated in from grade school thru high school graduation in 1969. I drove a school bus for a few years starting in 1989, and another driver, who was also a preacher, had the habit of getting on his radio every morning when we were heading out and wishing us all a safe, good day. Once or twice a week he would slip in a few words about Jesus and each time he did one of our supervisors would get on the radio and scold him for it; I just chuckled. He was a great guy and just couldn’t help himself, he had to spread the word. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/32 "2010-06-06T02:49:04Z")
Perhaps my experience in public school in Texas in the early 60s (before the Court ruling) was outside the norm. DURING the morning announcements, a student was selected (once it was me!) to read a short “thought for the day” type passage that ended with a straight-up prayer. At the end, the student body would say a collective “Amen.” Of course you didn’t have to join in the chorus at the end of the prayer, but there was no way to avoid having to listen to the prayer itself; even if you went in the hall you still heard the PA system. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/33 "2010-06-06T03:26:18Z")
South Georgia public schools, middle 1960s thru early 70s (Valdosta, Sallas-Mahone Elementary, Valdosta Junior High): a) in the morning, along with taking attendance, listening to the intercom announcements of who is sick today, doing the pledge of allegiance, etc, there would be a single short Bible verse read by a student at the front of the class b) During the day around midday, the teacher would read an entire chapter of the Bible aloud. We covered everything from Adam to Moses and the escape from Egypt in 4th grade. c) Every class room did one “Play”, a drama presentation to the rest of the school. They were _very often_ religious in nature. Our sixth grade class did the whole Noah & the animals thing, I myself played King Solomon deciding who of two women must be the baby’s proper mother, we sang the books of both the Old testament and New testament to music; other classes did the Mary & Joseph / nativity thing if their “play” came close to Christmas, and so on. d) During homeroom in Junior High, we would sometimes have one or more kids from other classes come to stand in front of OUR class and testify about being saved. Several kids were doing this, asking other home rooms’ teachers for permission to testify to their class (permission always granted). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/34 "2010-06-06T03:37:15Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > In New York in the 1950s, there was a state approved nondenominational school prayer: > > “Our father, we acknowledge our dependence on thee. We ask your blessings upon us, our parent, our teachers, and our country. Amen.” > > We recited this every day before class, along with the Pledge of Allegiance. I’m sure it was developed by a panel on clergy in order to make it as nondenominational as possible (New York had to please both Christians and Jews). I don’t recall a lot of protests when it was ended – the prayer was too bland for anyone to bother fighting for it. My parents were in High School in Brooklyn in the 50’s. Mom’s High School was like 90% Jewish but they still had readings from the New Testament at assemblies. I was in High School in the early 80’s in Los Angeles. There was some sort of honors breakfast at the end of my senior year. The girl who was selected to read the opening statement slipped in a prayer to Jesus. I was furious and complained to the Administration. They said, “yeah, sorry, what exactly do you want me to do about it?” Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/35 "2010-06-06T04:48:46Z")
I went to school in Texas–an area now part of Greater Houston, but almost rural at the time. Graduated in 1966–do the math. In elementary school, we started each day with the Pledge of Allegiance & “My Country 'tis of Thee.” As the years wore on, we dropped them–although I’m not sure when. We _never_ had daily prayer, although my classmates in elementary were 100% Christian. (At least nominally.) The occasional special occasion would have an “invocation.” I do remember hearing the Our Father, with some weird words tacked on the end; a Hail Mary would have made them faint. We had Christmas pageants, which the Seventh Day Adventist kids sat out. Our music teacher let us square dance every Friday; the Southern Baptist kids sat \*that \*out. In Junior High, we had a couple of Jewish kids; their family had the local dry goods store. I thought that was very cool. Still–prayer was reserved for Graduation & Football Games. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/36 "2010-06-06T05:09:45Z")
> [@](#): > > “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." Oh the IRONY it BURNS!!! ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/37 "2010-06-06T09:35:08Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Oh the IRONY it BURNS!!! I’m an atheist, but sometimes it’s pretty handy to be able to pull a Bible verse out. Also quite amusing (to me at least). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/38 "2010-06-06T11:49:40Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Oh the IRONY it BURNS!!! > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I’m an atheist, but sometimes it’s pretty handy to be able to pull a Bible verse out. Also quite amusing (to me at least). A point that whooshes past most self-styled “Real Christians” with the force of a thousand Supermen. However, I think it’s an acceptable GQ-style nitpick without getting into GD-type witnessing (the whimsical side of me is probably too overly amused by the idea of “that G.D. witnessing”), to note that Jesus was from a culture in which both private and corporate prayer were integral elements of one’s religious obligations, and not interchangeable. It’s probably therefore more reasonable to construe **AAWAYCG** ’s Bible quote, not as “Pray in there, not out here”, but rather “Pray your pirvate prayers privately, and your public prayers humbly; don’t be a show-off to impress others, because the One you’re ostensibly praying to impress, won’t be.” It being Shabbat, traditionally the proper time to ask questions about Judaism on the SDMB, perhaps this _goy_ may be excused for telling a very relevant Jeiwish joke to emphasize the point: On Yom Kippur, the rabbi stops in the middle of the service, prostrates himself beside the bema, and cries out, “Oh, God. Before You, I am nothing!” Saul Rosenberg, president of the temple is so moved by this demonstration of piety that he immediately throws himself to the floor beside the rabbi and cries, “Oh, God! Before you, I am nothing!” Then Chaim Pitkin, a tailor, jumps from his seat, prostrates himself in the aisle and cries, “Oh God! Before You, I am nothing!” Rosenberg nudges the rabbi and whispers, “So look who thinks he’s nothing.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/39 "2010-06-06T18:53:28Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Here is how it worked in the Bible Belt. We would do the milk count and the Pledge of Allegiance, then the teacher would single out a victim and state that “\_\_\_\_\_ will now lead us in prayer.” There were a couple of us who would just outright shake our heads, and after that she never called on us again, but there were others who weren’t wild about it but were afraid it might get back to their parents that they had refused to do something religious. … > > This was in a public school, early 60s. Why did the head-shakers refuse to lead prayer? Were they shy, atheists who attended church or atheists from an atheist household? Or was it something else? If they were atheists, I assume they kept quiet about it - is that correct? I’m guessing, “Shy”. But I’d be interested in those with direct experiences prior to the 1962-3 [SCOTUS decisions](http://www.answers.com/topic/school-prayer). ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/40 "2010-06-06T19:50:30Z")
I was born in 1965, but I’ll hazard a guess that some of the headshakers may have been Jewish, or other faiths, and not comfortable with either leading a Christian prayer or doing one from their own faith. Sorta like the Jehovah Witness kids that were not allowed to participate in the Christmas festivities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012.md?page=3)