# how did "school prayer" work? why isn't it done as spontaneous civil disobedience? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 5, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012 "2010-06-05T02:42:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/41 "2010-06-07T03:58:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Why did the head-shakers refuse to lead prayer? Were they shy, atheists who attended church or atheists from an atheist household? Or was it something else? If they were atheists, I assume they kept quiet about it - is that correct? > > I’m guessing, “Shy”. But I’d be interested in those with direct experiences prior to the 1962-3 [SCOTUS decisions](http://www.answers.com/topic/school-prayer). I never believed, but I was dragged to church as a kid, by fairly religious parents. I was never comfortable with being told to pray, even when I knew perfectly well what to say. I was worried about being a hypocrite. Then I quit worrying about it, because since I didn’t believe it in, it didn’t matter to me if I was stepping on someone else’s belief unless they thought I was. But it took me years to get to that point. I will say, almost everybody went to church, some regularly, most not, but one guy didn’t, ever. I don’t know if he was an atheist, but he also refused to pray. And he was teased about it, and people told him he was going to hell. People also tried to get him to lie about it, so our class could have a chance at getting our Church Count to 100%. He wouldn’t do that, either. Nobody would have called me shy, but I was just a bit too insecure to walk out of the class so as not to have to hear the prayer. If it was just reading a Bible verse to the class, well, I could do that. I still didn’t feel good about it but it was no worse than reading any other book. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/42 "2010-06-07T04:25:11Z")
The more that I think about it I don’t think I’d have much of a problem being called on to read a Bible verse or passage _as long as I got to pick which one_ ;). Though I’d probally stop getting called on eventually. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/43 "2010-06-07T04:36:30Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The more that I think about it I don’t think I’d have much of a problem being called on to read a Bible verse or passage _as long as I got to pick which one_ ;). Though I’d probally stop getting called on eventually. Ezekiel 23:20 is always a favorite for those occasions… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/44 "2010-06-07T05:54:39Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > I recall in the 90s I had a part time job in a Catholic Hospital answering phones in the ER. > > Before I got the job, the nun who interviewed me told me, “We have meetings and before each meeting we pray. You will be expected to bow your head, you don’t have to believe but you must sit quietly and go along with it.” > > It never bothered me, it was just a routine with no meaning behind it, at least for me Well, considering it was a Catholic hospital, I don’t think it WOULD be out of the ordinary. Nor do I think anyone could complain if they did have a problem. (If they accepted a job there) ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/45 "2010-06-07T06:13:43Z")
Ohio boy here. If I’m remembering correctly, in elementary school (for me 1958-1963), we started each day with The Lord’s Prayer. As others have pointed out, this was strictly ritual. We had learned the prayer’s words by rote…they were pure sound and nothing more (does any 2nd grader know what “hallowed” means?). By the time of the Supreme Court decision, I was pretty well out of elementary school. I don’t remember prayer being a part of my regular school experience after that. However, all through high school, long after the decision was handed down, we continued to say The Lord’s Prayer at the start of assemblies. I can recall writing a paper on this in my 12th grade Problems of Democracy class. I pointed out that maybe, just maybe, we ought not be doing this in light of the Supreme Court decision. I also pointed out how meaningless it was for hundreds of students to parrot words completely by sound, and wondered what was really being accomplished in having us do this. The P.O.D. teacher, who was a very conservative man and doubtless disagreed with my views, nevertheless wrote on my paper that I had presented my argument very well! ---
**Author:** ![KRC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/45deac/32.png) [@KRC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KRC)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/46 "2010-06-07T06:26:08Z")
School prayer was mostly gone from Lexington KY by the time I was in school, though I vaguely remember _The Littlest Angel_ and a couple nativity plays. I recall that they had a Bible as literature class at my high school but there was no pressure to take that course. I also recall that a student died from a chronic illness and the principal, after announcing his death, recommended we bow our heads for a moment of silence. Whereupon a fellow student merrily began to sing “Another One Bites the Dust.” ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/47 "2010-06-07T07:39:26Z")
I’m atheist or at least agnostic, and I think religion in general is silly, but I don’t quite understand why they can’t just do it like they do it at college. There’s religious meetings or servings for those that need them, in the various flavors, at a particular time, or you can abstain entirely if you wish. Why not just give a particular period to religious studies, or an after school club, and make it optional and segregated by religious affiliation? OTOH I can see where conflict can come into play when a coach wants to say a prayer before a big game or a principal wants to say a prayer before graduation or something. But even ignoring the heathens, do even small towns have such a majority of one particular denomination of Christianity that they don’t recognize the need for a more involving ceremony? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/48 "2010-06-07T11:55:08Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > But even ignoring the heathens, do even small towns have such a majority of one particular denomination of Christianity that they don’t recognize the need for a more involving ceremony? As a matter of fact, quite a number of the “classic” church/state cases have been brought by minority Christian sects (or local minority, like Catholics in certain places). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/49 "2010-06-07T17:42:12Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > …But even ignoring the heathens, do even small towns have such a majority of one particular denomination of Christianity that they don’t recognize the need for a more involving ceremony? It’s not so much that as it is the idea that a “non-denominational” that only mentions God (& not say Jesus) _is_ inclusive since “\*everybody \*believes in God in one for or another”. :rolleyes: Take NYS’s Regent’s Prayer; which was written by a panel of Catholic, Protestant, & Jewish clergy. [QUOTE=NYS Board of Regents] Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/50 "2010-06-08T00:10:53Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > It’s not so much that as it is the idea that a “non-denominational” that only mentions God (& not say Jesus) _is_ inclusive since “\*everybody \*believes in God in one for or another”. :rolleyes: This may have been a reasonable belief in 1962-3. I opine that it was. ---
**Author:** ![Thin\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@Thin\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thin_Ice)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/51 "2010-06-08T11:45:53Z")
I inadvertently transposed the last two digits of the year I started driving a school bus in my earlier post, #31. The actual year was 1998. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/52 "2010-06-08T13:54:00Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > This may have been a reasonable belief in 1962-3. I opine that it was. History would disagree, > [@](#): > > … the Court determined it unconstitutional by a vote of 6-1 for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when it is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation. As such, any teacher, faculty, or student can pray in school, in accordance with their own religion. However, they may not lead such prayers in class, or in other “official” school settings such as assemblies or programs, including even “non-sectarian” teacher-led prayers, e.g. “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country,” which was part of the prayer required by the New York State Board of Regents prior to the Court’s decision. As the Court stated:The petitioners contend, among other things, that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents’ prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State’s use of the Regents’ prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention, since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that, in this country, it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States#Supreme_Court_since_1947)[/RIGHT] > [@](#): > > … The American Ethical Union, the American Jewish Committee, and the Synagogue Council of America each submitted briefs urging the Court to … rule that the prayer was unconstitutional. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale)[/RIGHT] The case in question, _Engel v. Vitale_ 370 U.S. 421 (19 **62** ) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/53 "2010-06-08T15:16:53Z")
No prayer in school that I can recall in my Chicago suburb in the late '60s/early '70s. By about the 5th grade I had begun skipping over the “under God” line in the pledge of allegiance. If anybody even noticed, they didn’t care. But we did sing Jesus-based carols in school Christmas pageants, and I don’t remember anybody getting bent out of shape over it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/54 "2010-06-08T15:24:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually that is how it should be, If the people (teachers and/or teachers) desire to pray to their\*\* Father Creator\*\*, no one should stand in their way, but it should be a free will decision, not forced, but not obstructed either. _Virgin Architect_, thank you. Some of us worship Athena. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/55 "2010-06-08T15:27:44Z")
> [@](#): > > But we did sing Jesus-based carols in school Christmas pageants, and I don’t remember anybody getting bent out of shape over it. And if someone HAD become bent out of shape over it, that person would have been ostracized. Look at what happened to [Newdow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Newdow) and his daughter…“After the Ninth Circuit decision, Newdow received numerous death threats and other abusive messages on his phone answering machine. His daughter, then eight years old, was living elsewhere for her own safety”. Most people know very well what would happen if they made any sort of fuss about school-sponsored religion. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/56 "2010-06-08T15:31:22Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I was born in 1965, but I’ll hazard a guess that some of the headshakers may have been Jewish, or other faiths, and not comfortable with either leading a Christian prayer or doing one from their own faith. Sorta like the Jehovah Witness kids that were not allowed to participate in the Christmas festivities. The lone Jewish girl in my junior high school got a lot of oh-so-well-intended shit from our home room teacher because she did not wish to participate in the Christian prayer he led every morning, much less his readings FROM THE CHURCH OF GOD IN CHRIST SUNDAY SCHOOL LESSON. And his attempts to convert her led to any amount of not-well-intentioned-at-all shit from her classmates. I was born 4 years after Oak. Contrariwise, during the the two years I spent at Christian Brothers High School as one of the few non-Catholic students, I never had any problems with being forced or pressured to pray. There may have been a size issue involved, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/57 "2010-06-08T16:29:16Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > But even ignoring the heathens, do even small towns have such a majority of one particular denomination of Christianity that they don’t recognize the need for a more involving ceremony? One main _point_ of a public prayer is for the majority denomination(s) to imply that there are, in fact, no significant other beliefs to involve in the ceremony. Hence the emphasis on 100% participation mentioned several times in this thread. Hence the longing to go back to the good old days when it was just US and none of THEM, or at least THEY knew not to rock the boat. Having an inclusive ceremony that allowed minority belief systems a share of the limelight directly harms that projection of monolithic uniformity, which is why they don’t want to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/58 "2010-06-09T00:23:18Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > History would disagree,The case in question, _Engel v. Vitale_ 370 U.S. 421 (19 **62** ) > > CMC fnord! How do your quotations refute the hypothesis that, “Everybody believes in God in one form or another”? I’m not saying the hypothesis is or was true, mind you. I’m claiming that it had a reasonable basis as applied to the US in 1962-3. It seems to me that the opinion didn’t address that hypothesis: rather it was consistent with the foundational principle that intermingling church and state acts to the detriment of both. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/59 "2010-06-09T12:13:35Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I’m an atheist, but sometimes it’s pretty handy to be able to pull a Bible verse out. Also quite amusing (to me at least). Does anyone ever respond by telling you that you are misunderstanding the verse, and that the controlling verse should be [Matthew 10:27](http://bible.cc/matthew/10-27.htm)? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012/60 "2010-06-09T12:18:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Does anyone ever respond by telling you that you are misunderstanding the verse, and that the controlling verse should be [Matthew 10:27](http://bible.cc/matthew/10-27.htm)? > > Regards, > Shodan Or, to go about as far in religious debate as I would care to in GQ, that the proper methodology is not to cite single-verse prooftexts, but to refer to the full context of Jesus’s message to find out what it was that He actually was teaching. Proper methodology is important in any discipline, including moral theology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-school-prayer-work-why-isnt-it-done-as-spontaneous-civil-disobedience/542012.md?page=4)