# How did Shoemaker become an insult for crap work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 3, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237 "2014-07-03T00:06:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/1 "2014-07-03T00:06:11Z")
Guys in the trades, carpenters, plumbers, masons, will often say “What shoemaker did this?”. Meaning the work was done very incompetently. Often jury rigged crap by someone with no training in the trades. How did the age old craft of shoe making become an insult? ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/2 "2014-07-03T00:09:30Z")
I’m guessing not many shoemakers had training in carpentry or plumbing. If a shoemaker saw shoddily-made shoes he’d say “What plumber made these?” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/3 "2014-07-03T00:15:08Z")
I have never heard that term and been around the trades all my life. What part of the country did you hear this? ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/4 "2014-07-03T00:20:47Z")
“Cobbler” sometimes gets used as an insult in 16th- and 17th-century texts, although people in those days would have made a distinction between a “shoemaker” and a “cobbler” (who _mends_ shoes rather than makes them, hence the associations with cheap, shoddy, patched-up work). So, for example, in this exchange from _Julius Caesar_, the Second Commoner is playing with the two senses of “cobbler,” which is why Flavius and Marullus keep asking him what his job is after he’s just told them – they don’t realize that he is _literally_ a cobbler. > [@](#): > > Second Commoner. Truly, sir, in respect of a fine workman, I am but, as you would say, a cobbler. > > Marullus. But what trade art thou? answer me directly. > > Second Commoner. A trade, sir, that, I hope, I may use with a safe conscience; which is, indeed, sir, a mender of bad soles. > > Marullus. What trade, thou knave? thou naughty knave, what trade? > > Second Commoner. Nay, I beseech you, sir, be not out with me: yet, if you be out, sir, I can mend you. > > Marullus. What meanest thou by that? mend me, thou saucy fellow! > > Second Commoner. Why, sir, cobble you. > > Flavius. Thou art a cobbler, art thou? > > Second Commoner. Truly, sir, all that I live by is with the awl: I meddle with no tradesman’s matters, nor women’s matters, but with awl. I am, indeed, sir, surgeon to old shoes; when they are in great danger, I recover them. As proper men as ever trod upon neat’s leather have gone upon my handiwork. Maybe, as “shoemaker” and “cobbler” became virtual synonyms, the former took on the connotations of the latter? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/5 "2014-07-03T00:22:40Z")
New York. John DeSilvia was a NY union carpenter and contractor. He’s got a show Rescue My Renovation on DIY. The show focuses on homeowners with botched renovations and stubborn leaks other guys never could fix. He uses shoemaker a lot. Can’t cuss on DIY. 😉 I imagine different regions have their own expressions for incompetent people doing crap work. > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have never heard that term and been around the trades all my life. What part of the country did you hear this? ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/6 "2014-07-03T00:23:21Z")
“Cobbled together” is a euphemism for “poorly done” so it’s not a big stretch to wonder about the shoemaker who did said cobbling. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/7 "2014-07-03T00:23:27Z")
Pretty ironic, because shoemaking is _way_ more detailed and complicated than most other trades… ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/8 "2014-07-03T00:33:12Z")
The word cobble can either mean rough/clumsy manufacture or to patch/repair an item. So you’re not really dealing with quality items either way. Likewise, a cobbler is not necessarily someone who makes shoes, but who mends them. So I could definitely see the idea of lousy patches or shoddy work being cobbled together, leading to cobbler, leading to shoe maker. On the other hand, I’ve never heard guys in the trade use that term. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/9 "2014-07-03T00:49:40Z")
Wikipedia mentions chefs use the term. linguaphiles speculates cobbler is the reason shoemaking has become an insult. > **[Shoemaking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoemaking)** > > Shoemaking is the process of making footwear. > Originally, shoes were made one at a time by hand, often by groups of shoemakers, or cordwainers (sometimes misidentified as cobblers, who repair shoes rather than make them\[citation needed\]). In the 18th century, dozens or even hundreds of masters, journeymen, and apprentices (both men and women) would work together in a shop, dividing the work into individual tasks. A customer could come into a shop, be individually measured, and return to pick up ... > **[“It looks like a shoemaker put it together!”](https://linguaphiles.livejournal.com/3716171.html)** > > vynehorn, a friend whose many hobbies include historic shoemaking woodcarving, wonders about the origins of this phrase: “It looks like a shoemaker put it together!” The original post is on her lj ( http://vynehorn.livejournal.com/14488.html );... > [@](#): > > Chefs and cooks sometimes use the term “shoemaker” as an insult to others who have prepared sub-standard food, possibly by overcooking, implying that the chef in question has made his or her food as tough as shoe leather or hard leather shoe soles, and thus may be in the wrong profession. Similarly, to “cobble” can mean not only to make or mend shoes, but “to put together clumsily; to bungle.” > [@](#): > > vynehorn , a friend whose many hobbies include historic shoemaking & woodcarving, wonders about the origins of this phrase: “It looks like a shoemaker put it together!” > > The original post is on her lj ([“It looks like a shoemaker put it together!” - Muirne's Musings and Rants — LiveJournal](http://vynehorn.livejournal.com/14488.html)); with her permission I’m cross-posting it here because I suspect some members of this community will know more than we do. > > ``` > Why don’t shoemakers get any respect? I heard this outlandish insult at the tool sharpening class I attended this past weekend. I had brought a curved awl to the class because I wasn’t sure how to sharpen it. It was cool because I stumped the teacher, who was a walking encyclopedia on woodworking tools. After showing me the right way to sharpen it, he mentioned that carpenters and woodworkers use this phrase to indicate poor workmanship. I had never heard of this insult, but another man in the class, whose father had been a cabinetmaker, was also familiar with it. > Eloise and I puzzled over the origin of this bizarre and obviously inaccurate put-down. The only explanation we could come up with was that it actually refers to cobblers, who repair (rather than make) shoes and who are basically doing patch jobs. It’s denigrating to cobblers too, but it makes slightly more sense. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/10 "2014-07-03T01:13:41Z")
“Cobblers” is Cockney rhyming slang for nonsense (Cobblers awls == balls), but count me as another who never heard “shoemaker” as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![biqu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@biqu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biqu)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/11 "2014-07-03T16:27:15Z")
Coincidentally, I’m just now reading about the infamous save by goalkeeper Schumacher in the 1982 World Cup. > [@](#): > > Schumacher’s legacy changed from the moment France’s Michel Platini played a long, diagonal ball toward Patrick Battiston. > > The pass bounced once on the edge of the box. Battiston reached to poke it past Schumacher with his left foot. But Schumacher came charging like a freight train. With the ball already gone, the keeper went airborne, all knees and elbows. It was his hip, however, that appeared to make contact squarely with Battiston’s head. > > The ball bounced wide of the goal as the Frenchman hit the ground. For the next several minutes, he remained there—next to two of his own teeth. > > – Joshua Robinson, Wall Street Journal, 3 July 2014 Way to live up to your name, West German keeper. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/12 "2014-07-03T17:11:44Z")
IN my experience, ‘cobbling something together’ was more about making the best of what was available than doing a shoddy job (shoddy is also interesting word). ‘Bodger’ would be my word of choice for incompetent work. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/13 "2014-07-03T17:20:52Z")
Having worked as an actual cobbler, let me just say that while there are some actual artisans in the trade there are also a lot of folks who deserve the insult. Likewise, “tinker” used to refer itinerant metalworkers/tinsmiths who would travel about mending metal items, which definitely served and important role in the pre-modern economy but “tinkering” is not usually used as a term of respect. Partly, mending never seems to get the same respect as originally crafting something however important repairs might be, or however well done. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/14 "2014-07-03T17:22:37Z")
Was it self-deprecating humor when “Cordwainer” was the chosen pseudonym for both Bird and Smith? (or nom de plume in Bird’s case) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/15 "2014-07-03T17:25:24Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have never heard that term and been around the trades all my life. What part of the country did you hear this? Never heard it, either. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-shoemaker-become-an-insult-for-crap-work/692237/16 "2014-07-03T17:54:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > . . . Can’t cuss on DIY. 😉 . . . In that case, if you start out, instinctively, saying sh—, switching to shoemaker might let you keep your PG rating. Most of the suggestions given sound plausible to me, but plausible doesn’t prove etymologies. (Now I keep hearing a TV carpenter saying “sh—un the infidel.” I need a better earworm.)