# How did Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture become part of American Independence Day celebrations **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635 "2018-07-10T03:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/1 "2018-07-10T03:39:57Z")
Watching the TV last week, I saw news reports of US July 4th celebrations and in many cases, I heard Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture being played. Not the first time and the one time I was in US during the 4th of July, heard it played as well. Its stirring music I’ll grant you that, but its i) Russian!, ii) Composed to celebrate a Russian victory, iii) Not his best work, iv) Russian, v) Did I mention its Russian? How did such a Russian piece become such a staple in the US? I mean Russia has not exactly been the US’s friend for most of the last 100 years. Or did someone mistake the “1812” to stand for the American-Brit clash rather than the Patriotic War? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/2 "2018-07-10T03:48:19Z")
It’s the only classical piece that uses cannons… ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/3 "2018-07-10T03:49:18Z")
> **[Philharmonic Society of Orange County](https://www.philharmonicsociety.org/404)** > > The mission of the Philharmonic Society of Orange County is to foster an appreciation for music by presenting national and international performances of the highest quality while also providing dynamic and innovative music education programs for... ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/4 "2018-07-10T05:26:46Z")
For some reasons Americans really like Tchaikovsky. Look how made \*the Nutcracker \* their definitive Christmas music. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/5 "2018-07-10T06:15:54Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > It’s the only classical piece that uses cannons… This. And it’s not like classical music is owned by any country. AIUI, both sides used Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony in WWII as insprational music. The Germans because it’s “German” music and the Allies because the opening bar is V (for victory) in Morse Code. And just about every marching band in existence plays Sousa marches, including (I expect) the Stars and Stripes Forever. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/6 "2018-07-10T06:22:18Z")
Yeah, but the music dates to Russia with all the royalty, when it was all aristocratic and fancy. Americans have always eaten that shit up. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/7 "2018-07-10T12:00:50Z")
As noted in **Duckster** ’s link, it started in the '70s as a spectacle put on by the Boston Pops and spread from there. Americans have always enjoyed a big spectacle, especially on the Fourth of July. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/8 "2018-07-10T12:43:17Z")
I like the 1812 Overture just fine (it’s the one classical piece in which album liner notes go into detail about the nature of the ordnance used). But I haven’t had the experience the OP describes in finding it ubiquitous in 4th of July celebrations. Anyway, the U.S. did not begin to have an adversarial relationship with Russia until well over a century after Tchaikovsky composed the work, and it’s a looong stretch to associate it with Vlad the Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/9 "2018-07-10T13:09:19Z")
Well, he composed the work in 1880, so I don’t think it was as long as a century. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/10 "2018-07-10T13:21:02Z")
Also, the US did have a rather adversarial relationship with the USSR back when the Boston Pops first did an Independence Day performance of the piece. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/11 "2018-07-10T13:48:21Z")
I was at a public concert which included both 1812 and a song of Swiss patriotism that Americans have also co-opted (the William Tell Overture). Though they also did the Star-Spangled Banner, a couple of Sousas, and a Copland. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/12 "2018-07-10T13:49:59Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > It’s the only classical piece that uses cannons… There’s also Beethoven’s [Battle Symphony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington%27s_Victory), which ought to be better known. > [@](#): > > Beethoven had no illusions about its merits, and responded to similar criticism in his own time: “What I s\*\*\* (_scheisse_) is better than anything you could ever think up!” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/13 "2018-07-10T13:50:49Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > It’s the only classical piece that uses cannons… Yeah, what’s more American than a piece of music that goes BOOM? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/14 "2018-07-10T14:03:37Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Yeah, but the music dates to Russia with all the royalty, when it was all aristocratic and fancy. Americans have always eaten that shit up. **[My Country, Tis of Thee](https://youtu.be/tN9EC3Gy6Nk)** ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/15 "2018-07-10T14:03:37Z")
Obligatory [_Calvin and Hobbes_ link](https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/10/08). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/16 "2018-07-10T14:11:00Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yeah, what’s more American than a piece of music that goes BOOM? But remember, the “1812” does refer in the title and by abstract musical means to a great victory in war, the National Anthem a) has words and b) more specifically, the actual words “bombs bursting,” which are critical to the whole imagery. ETA: Now that I mention it, I can’t think of any songs at the moment where the lyrics deal with bombs bursting at all. There must be some from the the '60s protest movement… ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/17 "2018-07-10T14:25:29Z")
[Here’s another article](http://old.post-gazette.com/ae/20030704overtureae3.asp) that deals with the history of the tradition, which touches on many of the points raised above: it’s a piece that lends itself to spectacle; the Boston Pops conductor was a hell of a showman; Tchaikovsky had been a popular composer in the US both during his lifetime and after his death; and the “Russian-ness” of the piece has been largely erased in the popular imagination. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/18 "2018-07-10T14:30:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I was at a public concert which included both 1812 and a song of Swiss patriotism that Americans have also co-opted (the William Tell Overture). True, but that’s a song of Swiss patriotism extracted from an opera in French written by an Italian, who based it on a play written a German who had never been to Switzerland. I suppose that diverse lineage makes it feel even more American, in a way… ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/19 "2018-07-10T14:40:47Z")
> [@MikeS](#): > > True, but that’s a song of Swiss patriotism extracted from an opera in French written by an Italian, who based it on a play written a German who had never been to Switzerland. > > I suppose that diverse lineage makes it feel even more American, in a way… FWIW, on the general topic raised by this thread, and arguably even on this particular comment of **MikeS** – The [hasidic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism) movement in Judaism has wordless ecstatic chants ([nigunim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigun)) which are a distinguishing part of its practice. I don’t have the cite, but one of its grand _rebbe_s ruled on a complaint about one of their tunes taken from some war-song or other (nationalistic and secular, obviously, both bad mojo) and ruled it is not only acceptable but an elevation and transformation of the actual spirit in the music. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/20 "2018-07-10T15:08:02Z")
One of my early musical memories is cranking up 1812 on our family’s big entertainment console. The LP was one of Mercury’s “Living Presence” recordings with real cannons and bells. I found the documentary track on youtube here: [Story of achieving cannon and bells sounds for the recording (1955)](https://youtu.be/-Eie8xLbBio) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635.md?page=2)