# How did Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture become part of American Independence Day celebrations **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635 "2018-07-10T03:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/21 "2018-07-10T15:24:02Z")
ETA: Obviously much music evokes and provokes genuine feelings “specific to” generalized groups of humanity even larger than any one nation its discrete shared references. And, more appropriate to OP, although within a different milieu where the music-understanding element vis-a-vis emotion is different, are what in earliest (Medieval) appearances are called [contrafacta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrafactum). In fact, the most widespread contrafactum-of-sorts is in the same league as the music of the 1812 and The National Anthem;; The martial tune and bellicose words of “[The Armed Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_L%27homme_arm%C3%A9)” was a huge hit in the Renaissance, known to Popes and people alike. Yet Masses taking over that tune and still keeping it recognizable, sponsored by the most powerful rulers in the Western world, not only became a thing, but The Thing to do for almost all the composers in the market. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/22 "2018-07-10T16:43:29Z")
Ehh, I’ve heard [76 Trombones](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBQWsBiM5YY) performed in many July 4th celebrations, despite the fact that it: a) Was written in 1957 b) Specifically for a Broadway show c) Makes no mention of liberty, patriotism, great battles. the 4th of July, the flag, heroism, or for that matter, America. It is a song about a marching band. Frankly, [Oklahoma!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbrnXl2gO_k) would be a better fit for the 4th. [Not hard to adapt into a march, either.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY-AVMsfwy4) ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/23 "2018-07-10T16:52:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I was at a public concert which included both 1812 and a song of Swiss patriotism that Americans have also co-opted (the William Tell Overture). Though they also did the Star-Spangled Banner, a couple of Sousas, and a Copland. Pretty sure the popularity _William Tell Overture_ in the US is due to the fact that it was used as the theme to _The Lone Ranger_ and not for any Swiss-related reason. I had no idea the William Tell was Swiss, I just remember something about shooting an apple off of his son’s head… ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/24 "2018-07-10T16:57:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There’s also Beethoven’s [Battle Symphony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington%27s_Victory), which ought to be better known. Wellington’s Victory is probably Beethoven’s worst composition. Every time I hear it, I can only hear, “The Bear Went Over the Mountain.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/25 "2018-07-10T17:30:52Z")
Yup, that’s exactly how we co-opted it. But that’s actually only one of two parts of the piece that’s familiar to Americans: There’s another portion that’s often used to accompany idyllic springtime scenes. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/26 "2018-07-10T17:36:02Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Wellington’s Victory is probably Beethoven’s worst composition. Every time I hear it, I can only hear, “The Bear Went Over the Mountain.” There’s a reason for that. The Bear… and For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow were both derived from the French folk song “Marlbrough s’en va-t-en guerre” ("“Marlborough Has Left for the War”). Liszt also used it to great effect in “Les Preludes”. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/27 "2018-07-10T17:43:03Z")
A performance of the 1812 Overture loses a lot when televised. I tuned in one 4th of July evening just as they reached the cannon part. It was sort of silly because the boom of those 105mm howitzers is transformed into just a sharp firecracker on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/28 "2018-07-10T18:07:24Z")
Somehow, in 6 years of music school at three institutions plus military bands, I can’t recall ever having a negative concern about the nationality of a composer, so biased as to prohibit our listening to, studying or performing their music. Isn’t music an international language? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/29 "2018-07-10T18:16:11Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > A performance of the 1812 Overture loses a lot when televised. I tuned in one 4th of July evening just as they reached the cannon part. It was sort of silly because the boom of those 105mm howitzers is transformed into just a sharp firecracker on TV. [Caution: Digital Cannons!](http://www.keithhirsch.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/early-matushita-1812-cover_500.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/30 "2018-07-10T19:32:10Z")
> [@K364](#): > > There’s a reason for that. The Bear… and For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow were both derived from the French folk song “Marlbrough s’en va-t-en guerre” ("“Marlborough Has Left for the War”). Liszt also used it to great effect in “Les Preludes”. OoooOOOO! My crystal ball says that’s likely to be the origin for the Spanish _Mambrú se fue a la guerra_ (ETA: what I find in youtube sounds different but close). I’d always wondered who the heck Mambrú was. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/31 "2018-07-10T19:56:05Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Wellington’s Victory is probably Beethoven’s worst composition. Every time I hear it, I can only hear, “The Bear Went Over the Mountain.” I wish that I could compose so badly. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/32 "2018-07-10T20:24:18Z")
For that matter, Tchaikovsky arranged rather than composed _1812_. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/33 "2018-07-10T20:51:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > For that matter, Tchaikovsky arranged rather than composed _1812_. I don’t think so. Arrange means there is an existing composition. You are referring to the use of existing themes? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/34 "2018-07-10T20:54:03Z")
The songs already existed. They weren’t just themes. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/35 "2018-07-10T21:21:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The songs already existed. They weren’t just themes. Granted. But the T-man did a helluva lot of arranging to bash them in place. _1812 Overture_ is not some ordinary Bing Crosby medley. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/36 "2018-07-10T21:44:50Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > But remember, the “1812” does refer in the title and by abstract musical means to a great victory in war … Quite right! This overture celebrates our great victory over the British redcoats in the War of 1812.\* A victory so outstanding that even way off in Russia Tchaikovsky had heard about it. So it’s quite appropriate for an Independence Day celebration. \*And don’t post info about this war, and ending where it started. It was a great American victory, and don’t distract me with any facts. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/37 "2018-07-10T21:53:25Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Granted. But the T-man did a helluva lot of arranging to bash them in place. _1812 Overture_ is not some ordinary Bing Crosby medley. I don’t think the 1812 Overture is entirely composed of bits and pieces of existing works. I’m pretty sure there’s original stuff in there as well. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/38 "2018-07-10T22:33:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The songs already existed. They weren’t just themes. In the Tchaikovsky composition they are themes. These themes were mostly well know national songs (La Marseillaises, Czar’s Hymn) and Russian folk tunes. Some might be original including the catchy one at the end. Not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/39 "2018-07-10T22:38:56Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Yeah, but the music dates to Russia with all the royalty, when it was all aristocratic and fancy. Americans have always eaten that shit up. Of course they haven’t always eaten that shit up… almost by definition. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/40 "2018-07-10T22:56:30Z")
There were a heck of a lot of Americans who wanted to make Washington our king. So, yes, we have always eaten that up. And all of the 1812 Overture was made up of pieces of other songs, if you cut the pieces up small enough. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635.md?page=3)