# How did Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture become part of American Independence Day celebrations **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635 "2018-07-10T03:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/41 "2018-07-10T23:38:30Z")
Yeah, he even stole from Dan Fogelberg: [https://youtu.be/cIGiX-vc6M8?t=17s](https://youtu.be/cIGiX-vc6M8?t=17s) ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/42 "2018-07-11T00:19:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There were a heck of a lot of Americans who wanted to make Washington our king. So, yes, we have always eaten that up. > > And all of the 1812 Overture was made up of pieces of other songs, if you cut the pieces up small enough. šŸ˜ƒ Were there? They didnā€™t. So no, we havenā€™t. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/43 "2018-07-11T18:29:18Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > But remember, the ā€œ1812ā€ does refer in the title and by abstract musical means to a great victory in war, the National Anthem a) has words and b) more specifically, the actual words ā€œbombs bursting,ā€ which are critical to the whole imagery. > > ETA: Now that I mention it, I canā€™t think of any songs at the moment where the lyrics deal with bombs bursting at all. There must be some from the the '60s protest movementā€¦ Different ā€œ[victory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia)ā€, though. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/44 "2018-07-11T21:44:15Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Of course they havenā€™t always eaten that shit upā€¦ almost by definition. As vicarious _entertainment_ (like watching a soap opera) not as part of our government, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/45 "2018-07-12T04:55:06Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Now that I mention it, I canā€™t think of any songs at the moment where the lyrics deal with bombs bursting at all. There must be some from the the '60s protest movementā€¦ ā€œ[Spanish Bombs](https://youtu.be/ertt3o1x65c)ā€ by the Clash. > [@MikeS](#): > > As noted in **Duckster** ā€™s link, it started in the '70s as a spectacle put on by the Boston Pops and spread from there. In the summer of 1975 (not the 4th of July) I went to a Cleveland Orchestra concert at Blossom Music Center, where the big attraction was the _1812_. They made such a rousing jam of it that at the end my dad was overcome with fervor, stood with a fist, and cheered. Music can rouse a person like that. _Aux barricades, les camarades!_ > [@blondebear](#): > > One of my early musical memories is cranking up 1812 on our familyā€™s big entertainment console. The LP was one of Mercuryā€™s ā€œLiving Presenceā€ recordings with real cannons and bells. I found the documentary track on youtube here: [Story of achieving cannon and bells sounds for the recording (1955)](https://youtu.be/-Eie8xLbBio) My parents had that record! That was my introduction to the _1812_. That story of how they recorded the cannons and church bells was on the flip side of the record. I remember listening to that when I was little. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/46 "2018-07-12T08:02:04Z")
The coordination of the cannons and the music is complicated. I was at an open air concert in Davenport, IA back in the mid-80ā€™s. It was written up in the newspaper how they did it. At the orchestra, the conductor is timing the orchestra and another person familiar with the score is at a telephone (the old military - survive nuclear blast type) on a land line down to the 105mm howitzer crews. At a signal (nod) from the conductor, the relay man says a simple ā€œgoā€. The music is audible at the howitzer site but delayed by the distance (even blanks require safety separation from the civies). Thereā€™s a slight delay as the listener hears and processes the ā€œgoā€. Another heartbeat for him to signal to the gunner, heartbeat as the gunner recognizes the signal, heartbeats as he pulls the lanyard, the ignition of the powder in the blank shell takes another heartbeat. Then the sound must travel back up to where the audience is. It took a bunch of rehearsals to get the timing down so the sound is heard in time with the music. And the gun crews are rapidly reloading for the next volley. They had to signal slightly ahead of time to get it in sync. Whew. Little note on the 105mm blanks. They were mostly previously fired brass cartridge cases that are cut down to a bit under half length. The cases are resized (expanded some when first fired), a short stubby primer is inserted. The case gets a small propellent charge (black powder or similar) and then is sealed with a wax plug or wad w/closure cup. The cartridge case are required to be turned back in but significant numbers disappear and end up with various engravings for ceremonies. optional reading followsā€¦ Old story from way back. Iā€™m at US Army Azizuki Army Depot on an island (Etajima) near Kure, Japan. Thereā€™s a MLC (master labor contractor - local national) whose job is artwork. He produced paintings, etched/engraved awards, woodworked plaques and nameplates, did carving for not just the US base but for units in the nearby Japanese Self-Defense bases. He was carried on the books as an ammunition inspector. Some American passing through reported this discrepancy to the Inspector General office up in Tokyo area. A major dutifully arrives and documents the workshop, tools, artwork and reports back to Tokyo. The story goes that as he is ardently detailing this fraud to his boss; the colonel raises a brass mug with a brass plated .50 cal blank round brazed on as the handle. A 105mm blank cartridge case! The colonel noted that was very interesting. The major at this point must have recognized where the mug had come from and beat a retreat from the office. Note that the Japanese government paid the MLCs and were not concerned at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/47 "2018-07-12T08:50:45Z")
The official opening of Carnegie Hall in May 1891 the guest conductor was Tchaikovsky. Remember, the most popular athlete for Americans in the 1972 Summer Olympics was Olga Korbutā€¦ā€¦a Russian gymnast ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/48 "2018-07-12T14:31:46Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Now that I mention it, I canā€™t think of any songs at the moment where the lyrics deal with bombs bursting at all. There must be some from the the '60s protest movementā€¦ You mean youā€™ve never heard the unforgettable [Ariel, by Dean Friedman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONXQbbJJLuM)? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/49 "2018-07-12T15:17:13Z")
Itā€™s true that itā€™s Russian, but itā€™s also about beating the French. What more do Americans link to patriotism than making fun of the French? ā€˜Freedom Fries Forever, baby!!!ā€™ šŸ™‚ More seriously, itā€™s a very religious piece and that appeals to American sensibilities as well. Itā€™s ultimately about God rescuing his people from disaster at the hands of godless invaders which had Iā€™m sure a certain appeal during the Cold War. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/50 "2018-07-12T15:41:44Z")
Do people recognize the religiosity of the piece? I doubt it. I think most people just think itā€™s a loud, bombastic work that sounds really cool. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/51 "2018-07-12T23:11:46Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Obligatory [_Calvin and Hobbes_ link](https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/10/08). Iā€™ve performed this multiple times and am irked that itā€™s never been with actual cannons. Granted, twice\* was\* in crowded concert halls. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/52 "2018-07-13T14:49:56Z")
Iā€™m with Calvin. _The 1812 Overture_ was one of my favorite pieces of classical music as a kid, and I still love it, but not just because of the cannons - itā€™s a beautiful, multi-textured, stirring work. Hereā€™s a Japanese military band playing it - you can see at 9:50 that they use small flags to signal the 105mm artillery cues. The big booms start at 10:04: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F5k70xwGSk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F5k70xwGSk) And see the U.S. Armyā€™s 101st Field Artillery at 6:19 here (including a slight mishap with the ammo for the final volley): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtXUj-09PME](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtXUj-09PME) > [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > Pretty sure the popularity _William Tell Overture_ in the US is due to the fact that it was used as the theme to _The Lone Ranger_ and not for any Swiss-related reasonā€¦ I once heard it said that a mark of your sophistication was if you could hear the _William Tell Overture_ and not even once think about the Lone Ranger! ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/53 "2018-07-13T15:10:39Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Do people recognize the religiosity of the piece? I doubt it. I think most people just think itā€™s a loud, bombastic work that sounds really cool. This. Itā€™s the appeal of a lot of Russian orchestral works - ā€œNight on Bald Mountainā€ for instance. Iā€™m partial to ā€œMarche Slaveā€, myself. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/54 "2018-07-13T15:29:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I once heard it said that a mark of your sophistication was if you could hear the _William Tell Overture_ and not even once think about the Lone Ranger! Just cigarettes and pizza rolls. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/55 "2018-07-13T17:09:22Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Remember, the most popular athlete for Americans in the 1972 Summer Olympics was Olga Korbutā€¦ā€¦a Russian gymnast She was from Belarus, not Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/56 "2018-07-13T17:39:49Z")
True, but I think during the Cold War Americans used Russian to refer to anyone from anywhere in the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![Jumpbass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jumpbass/32/147_2.png) [@Jumpbass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jumpbass)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/57 "2018-07-13T17:47:55Z")
A couple years ago I conducted the 1812 with the high school concert band I work with. Instead of cannons, we passed out paper lunch bags to the audience. On my cue, they blew them up and popped them. Made quite a racket. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/58 "2018-07-13T18:56:34Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > This. Itā€™s the appeal of a lot of Russian orchestral works - ā€œNight on Bald Mountainā€ for instance. Iā€™m partial to ā€œMarche Slaveā€, myself. Not written by a Russian, but itā€™s about some of them, and sounds like it, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/59 "2018-07-13T21:19:24Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Wellingtonā€™s Victory is probably Beethovenā€™s worst composition. Every time I hear it, I can only hear, ā€œThe Bear Went Over the Mountain.ā€ Greenberg played a bit of it on one of his Beethoven Symphony Course CDs. I did find a copy, on a CD with the 1812 Overture. Cannons are divine. Lots of small arms fire in the Wellington is dreadful. It was one of Beethovenā€™s more popular works, showing that the Viennese public was not necessarily any smarter than the American public. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635/60 "2018-07-13T21:48:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Greenberg played a bit of it on one of his Beethoven Symphony Course CDs. I did find a copy, on a CD with the 1812 Overture. They seem popular to record together. I had an LP of them when a was younger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-tchaikovskys-1812-overture-become-part-of-american-independence-day-celebrations/817635.md?page=4)