# How Did the American Soldier Stack Up Against the Enemy in WWII? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2001, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677 "2001-11-16T04:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/121 "2014-08-14T20:14:49Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I have heard criticism of the combat capability of the American soldier from British veterans particularly with their performance in North Africa and Italy. . Sure, after 2-3 years of fighting the Brits had a lot of hardened veterans and desert experience. Read about the bungling of the Brits when they first met the Afrika Corps. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/122 "2014-08-14T20:28:30Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Launched from where? If the Soviet government had collapsed following the fall of Moscow in winter '41, it’s highly unlikely that the UK would still be in the war in summer '45. If the bulk of German forces were freed from the Eastern front, Operation Sealion II becomes a real possibility. And even if Britain wasn’t invaded the threat of invasion might have been enough to force a truce. As we have seen, without naval superiority and without lots of great dedicated landing craft, large scale amphibious assaults are just not possible. The Germans had neither. Note that all the army was “free” to invade England during The Battle of Britain. And, as long as Churchill was alive the Brits were never going to surrender. The USA would make sure England was fed and had control of the air and seas. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/123 "2014-08-14T22:02:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d have given it ten years tops. The British Navy could have swept the American Navy of that era off the oceans … I disagree. The US Navy was putting out deadly twin-turret Monitors while the Brits were still building broadside ironclads with sails. They had 7-9" guns and 5" armor, while the better monitors had 15" guns and 15" armor. The 7-9" guns would have bounced off the monitors armor with no effect while the 15" Dahlgrens would have gone thru that pitiful 5" of armor like tissue paper. True, those ironclads could have sailed across the Atlantic without foundering, while even the sea-going monitors had issues with high seas. But once here the mighty British navy would have been sunk without any serious losses on the American side. It wasnt until 1871 when the British navy caught up. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/124 "2014-08-15T03:04:36Z")
I think it’s safe to say there was no greater group of soldiers in the history of the world than the German 6th Army. Ol’ Adolf wasted a bounty. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/125 "2014-08-15T05:45:40Z")
The ability of one group of soldiers to counter another is very likely dependent on multiple factors, including availability and quality of armaments, population, etc. ---
**Author:** ![seodoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seodoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seodoa)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/126 "2014-08-15T06:25:28Z")
Yes, yes, but how would the American servicemen stack up against _Nazi zombies_? Also, while I know it’s from over a decade ago and the poster is probably long gone, but I can’t believe **jaybee** didn’t get so much as a :dubious: for the “Jap bastards” remark. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/127 "2014-08-15T10:40:47Z")
> [@seodoa](#): > > Also, while I know it’s from over a decade ago and the poster is probably long gone, but I can’t believe **jaybee** didn’t get so much as a :dubious: for the “Jap bastards” remark. 2001 was a different time. Posters understood what context was. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/128 "2014-08-17T02:20:45Z")
Trying to somehow say that Russian soldiers were better based on the number kia as shown above is ludicrous. The Russian soldier didn’t stand a chance. They were thrown into battle and would win, not by tactics, but by just throwing men at the Germans until they ran out of bullets (snark). If they turned back, they were massacred by their own army for being cowards. We lost less men because we weren’t stupid. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/129 "2014-08-18T05:50:31Z")
[QUOTE=seodoa;17640901 Also, while I know it’s from over a decade ago and the poster is probably long gone, but I can’t believe **jaybee** didn’t get so much as a :dubious: for the “Jap bastards” remark.[/QUOTE] My 100-year-old Great Uncle who was depth-charged in the South China Sea and spent the entire war in a prisoner-of-war camp in Japan still calls our current friends “Japs”, even though he understands the war ended quite a while ago. I still visit him once in a while - should I scold him for you? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/130 "2014-08-18T06:15:29Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > My 100-year-old Great Uncle who was depth-charged in the South China Sea and spent the entire war in a prisoner-of-war camp in Japan still calls our current friends “Japs”, even though he understands the war ended quite a while ago. I still visit him once in a while - should I scold him for you? And my grandmother, who was born in 1900, used the term coloreds all her life. But you don’t inherit a pass on using outdated racial terms that are now offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/131 "2014-08-18T07:35:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I disagree. The US Navy was putting out deadly twin-turret Monitors while the Brits were still building broadside ironclads with sails. They had 7-9" guns and 5" armor, while the better monitors had 15" guns and 15" armor. The 7-9" guns would have bounced off the monitors armor with no effect while the 15" Dahlgrens would have gone thru that pitiful 5" of armor like tissue paper. > > True, those ironclads could have sailed across the Atlantic without foundering, while even the sea-going monitors had issues with high seas. But once here the mighty British navy would have been sunk without any serious losses on the American side. > > It wasnt until 1871 when the British navy caught up. I’m not seeing the 15" figures you’re quoting here in a quick look around, and of course the heaviest monitors were strictly riverine craft. I think you’re slightly handwaving the seaworthiness question when you say “had issues with high seas”, and a quote I found might stress better the actual facts: “The low freeboard meant that these ships were unsuitable for ocean-going duties and were always at risk of swamping, flooding and possible loss”. Monitors were for coastal defence and harbour protection; stay a few miles offshore and you need never even see one, and they had too low a speed and too short a range to get near anything ocean-going. If American shipping needed to travel only short distances in coastal waters in fine weather then monitors could protect them effectively; the flatirons were useless for anything else, emphatically including high seas superiority. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/132 "2014-08-18T11:04:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And my grandmother, who was born in 1900, used the term coloreds all her life. But you don’t inherit a pass on using outdated racial terms that are now offensive. But you just did, and in exactly the same manner as jaybee - while paraphrasing another person. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/133 "2014-08-18T15:23:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I think you’re slightly handwaving the seaworthiness question when you say “had issues with high seas”, and a quote I found might stress better the actual facts: “The low freeboard meant that these ships were unsuitable for ocean-going duties and were always at risk of swamping, flooding and possible loss”. You’re being overly generous if anything. The USS _Monitor_ was lost when she foundered and sank in rough weather all of 16 miles southeast off Cape Hatteras. In the words of Dana Green, executive officer, upon receiving her final sailing orders [“I do not consider this steamer a sea going vessel.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Monitor#Final_voyage) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/134 "2014-08-18T17:14:09Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I’m not seeing the 15" figures you’re quoting here in a quick look around, and of course the heaviest monitors were strictly riverine craft. I think you’re slightly handwaving the seaworthiness question when you say “had issues with high seas”, and a quote I found might stress better the actual facts: “The low freeboard meant that these ships were unsuitable for ocean-going duties and were always at risk of swamping, flooding and possible loss”. > > Monitors were for coastal defence and harbour protection; stay a few miles offshore and you need never even see one, and they had too low a speed and too short a range to get near anything ocean-going. If American shipping needed to travel only short distances in coastal waters in fine weather then monitors could protect them effectively; the flatirons were useless for anything else, emphatically including high seas superiority. The US had developed seagoing Monitors: > **[Miantonomoh-class monitor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miantonomoh_class_monitor)** > > The Miantonomoh class consisted of four monitors built for the Union Navy during the U.S. Civil War, but only one ship was completed early enough to participate in the war. They were broken up in 1874–1875. > Designed by John Lenthall. The hull of the monitors were of a conventional form\[clarification needed\], but were constructed of wood, not iron. The ships displaced 3,400 long tons (3,500 t) and were 258 feet 6 inches (78.79 m) in length with a 53 feet (16 m) beam and 13 feet (4.0 m) draft. F... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/135 "2014-08-18T17:16:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And my grandmother, who was born in 1900, used the term coloreds all her life. But you don’t inherit a pass on using outdated racial terms that are now offensive. So we’re gonna change the Headlines to “Persons of Japanese birth Bomb Pearl Harbor”?:rolleyes: In historical context, it’s fine. **And you’re debating what someone posted 13 years ago.** ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/136 "2014-08-18T17:18:35Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You’re being overly generous if anything. The USS _Monitor_ was lost when she foundered and sank in rough weather all of 16 miles southeast off Cape Hatteras. In the words of Dana Green, executive officer, upon receiving her final sailing orders [“I do not consider this steamer a sea going vessel.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Monitor#Final_voyage) That’s the very first monitor, later Monitors could cross the Atlantic, even tho they were never known as good sailors. But in any case, if the Royal Navy came here, their pitiful ironclads would be sunk without a loss on the US Navy’s side. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/137 "2014-08-18T20:09:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And you’re debating what someone posted 13 years ago. No, I’m debating what somebody posted twenty-five minutes before I did. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/138 "2014-08-19T00:14:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The US had developed seagoing Monitors: > > [Miantonomoh-class monitor - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miantonomoh_class_monitor) > [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s the very first monitor, later Monitors could cross the Atlantic, even tho they were never known as good sailors. > > But in any case, if the Royal Navy came here, their pitiful ironclads would be sunk without a loss on the US Navy’s side. Do you even read your own cites? > [@](#): > > The Monadnock, **the only one to take part in the Civil War** , is usually considered the best of the U.S. monitors. In 1865/6 she went to San Francisco, via the Strait of Magellan and although three ships were in company, she was not towed. > > Miantonomoh crossed the Atlantic in 1866, **though she was towed** for 1,100 miles by the side-wheel steamer Augusta. I’ll just note that the USS _Monitor_ was herself being towed when lost 16 miles off the coast. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/139 "2014-08-19T05:40:34Z")
> [@LongLineRider](#): > > Also most military experts agree that in the American War Between The States that the Southern Soldier was superior on a personal level yet the South lost the war due to the North’s industrial capacity and superiority in numbers The american indian warrior was also clearly better than the average Army cavalry trooper. They could ride better, shoot better, made better use of stealth, and were better at hand to hand combat. The problem is they were heavily outnumbered heavily and had no real supply lines capable of feeding and arming them. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677/140 "2014-08-19T07:56:34Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You’re being overly generous if anything. The USS _Monitor_ was lost when she foundered and sank in rough weather all of 16 miles southeast off Cape Hatteras. In the words of Dana Green, executive officer, upon receiving her final sailing orders [“I do not consider this steamer a sea going vessel.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Monitor#Final_voyage) At the time and place, I thought it best to be tactful given someone’s fantasising about American superweapons of the 1860s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-american-soldier-stack-up-against-the-enemy-in-wwii/93677.md?page=8)