How did the axis powers last so long in WW2

Great Debates
61

The short answer is that they were able to fight that well because they got a jump on the Allies and then dug in. Had the Allies prepared for the war to the same degree that Germany and Japan did, it would have been over within two years, at most.

Japan was able to hold out for as long as it did for the following reasons:

Racism. The Allies, principally Britain and the US did not believe the Japanese were capable of holding their own against Western powers so they ignored them for far too long. The Allies didn’t study the Japanese war capacity or their aircraft, to name just a couple of example, and were thus completely unprepared for the sudden attack.

Japan’s experience in war. By the time they attacked the Allies, Japan had been at war for four years. It took the US a couple of years to gain sufficient experience itself. Most of 1942 was spent learning the nuts and bolts of actual warfare.

Although GB had been at war for more than two years, it failed to utilize that experience in Asia, principally because of the racism.

The Allies late start and lack of preparations. The US was rapidly expanding its fleet and making other preparations. However, they were too late on making preparations on the ground in PH, PI, Guam and Wake Is.

Had they started six months earlier or postponed the crippling sanctions against Japan for another six months or a year, it would have been an entirely different war. One report by the USAAR after the war made the claim that had the US stationed 2,000 planes on 10 air bases in the Philippine Islands, it would have prevented the war. I agree. Had they provided sufficient training to the native Filipino solders, increased the US presence, improved coastal defenses and such, Japan would not have been able to invade it.

Even if the US didn’t make those preparations, had they simply storied six months of rice for 80,000 men in Baatan, it would also have been a much shorter war.

Sitting right on the shipping lanes for the vital oil and other natural resources, the US could have more effectively blockaded Japan. Also being able to retain their sub bases in Subic Bay would have allowed them to discover the problems with the Mark IV torpedo much sooner.

Wake Island wouldn’t matter, but if the US had fortified and dug into Guam, Japan would be fucked. The US would have a base to attack Saipan and Tinian and combined with the US retaining the Philippines, there’s not a damn thing the Japanese could have done There would be four major battles: Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Kyushu and Kanto. The war would have ended sometime between 1943 and ’44 unless the Japanese surrendered earlier.

The failure to protect Singapore is one of the worst Allied failures. Their appalling efforts or lack thereof is shameful. Had the British believed that there was really a danger and made sufficient preparations, it should not have fallen.

Japan’s [del]sucker punch[/del] drop on the Allies. Hit them hard and when they aren’t looking. Grab as much territory, dig in and make them pay in blood.

Don’t surrender. Fight to the death. Prepare to sacrifice your entire country.

62

that’s all well and nice but the US didn’t have squat at the beginning of the war. We didn’t have the assets or the supplies to float over to the other side of the Pacific and wage war indefinitely. For ever mile advanced forward you have to travel twice that to resupply.

63

Ridiculous. The United States was had the largest industrial capacity in the world. The amount of money required to have prevented the war was miniscule compared to the amount spend in the immediate rush to rearm in 1942.

As I said, it would not have required that much more that what they were already committed to doing in the Two Oceans Act, passed in June, 1940. All they would have had to have done was allocate more money to building the planes faster and training flight crews quicker.

They were already in the process of fortifying the positions in the Pacific, it was just that they started too late. Had they started six months to a year earlier, Japan would not have been able to take the US positions. They lacked the ability to land troops under strong opposition. If the US had control over the air Japan could not have successfully invaded those islands.

Likewise, Singapore should not have been lost. Proper preparations would have allowed it to be held.

Prewar planning called for the US forces to hole up in Baatan for six months to allow the US to build up strength sufficiently enough to start an offensive. This is why I speculate that it would take until 1943 or '44 to be able to carry the war to Japan.

Without oil the IJN would not have been able to use their highly acclaimed battleships. When the war broke out in December, 1941, the IJN had only one year supply for peacetime operations (IIRC).

Japan lacked sufficient merchant marine capacity. They possessed only 50% of the peacetime needs, although they were able to capture 25% through their conquests in Southeast Asia. Much of that shipping was taken by the IJA and IJN (which separately maintained their own logistics).

Had they not been able to seize those ships, they would have been royally screwed.

The US would have been able to effectively blockage Japan. Having the sub base at Subic Bay would have brought them more than halfway closer than their base in PH.

Japan is the only major industrialized country which is dependent of ocean freight for domestic shipping. Much of their rice is grown in the northern island of Hokkaido and almost all of their sugar was grown in Okinawa islands and imported from SE Asia.

By the summer of 1945, the Japanese were starving because of insufficient food and calorie intake.

Finally, as I noted, the timing was entirely up to the US. Had Roosevelt waited another six months to a year to begin the oil embargo, as the Secretary of the Navy wanted, they could have completed their preparations.

64

The Waffen SS was a very small part of the German armed forces at the start of the war and did not perform well.

65

Yes but at the beginning of the war we didn’t have the assets in place. You can’t launch a campaign with a promissory note of superior capacity. You have to have the assets and logistical support in place at the time it’s launched. The best we could do was Doolittle’s Raiders and that was a stunt meant for public support. It bought us time to build ships and the resources needed to wage war 4000 miles away.

66

Which again ignores my argument at these assets should have been built up in place prior to the US placing the oil and war material embargo on Japan. Without that embargo there was no need for Japan to attack the DEI, and thus no need for them to attack the US.

Ignoring all the rest, my argument is already laid out above.

67

This post will reveal my lack of knowledge on the Eastern Front, but would there have been any way for Hitler to have gotten to the Soviet Union without directly attacking Poland?

If someone with a time machine goes back to 1935 and decides to help Germany and Japan, would there be a way?

Have Hitler work on his “image problem” in the West, have him spend all of his energy painting Communists and the ultimate evil. The Nazis can wait to do their genocide later.

Conduct secret pacts with France and the UK in which Germany promises to respect Poland territorial integrity. Renegotiate the Versailles treaty rather than unilaterally break it. Don’t remilitarize the Rhineland.

Transfer German manufacturing and military technologies and concepts to Japan. Train Japanese generals on fighting modern armies.

Keep Japan out of China by all costs, promising Siberia, or large chunks of Eastern Siberia to them.

Secretly promise Poland large chunks of land to their east if they cooperate with you. Help train and modernize their armies with German weapons, but don’t increase their manufacturing capabilities.

Secretly promise people in Ukraine independence if they support you once the fight begins. Same for Belarusians.

Secretly promise Finland, Lithuania, Latvia and Latvia large chunks of land to their east if they cooperate with you. Help train and modernize their armies with German weapons, and help them increase their manufacturing capabilities.

Promise parts of Soviet territory to Hungary and Romania if they cooperate with you. Help train and modernize their armies with German weapons, and help them increase their manufacturing capabilities.

Promise Mussolini German cooperation with North Africa, Yugosolavia and all if they first help fight the USSR. Help train their armies and increase their manufacturing capabilities. Once they are committed in the fight against the Soviets, help stage a coup and put the generals in charge. Mussolini is too much of a wild canon so he’s got to go.

Manufacture more light tanks for the initial attack. Use German tank units combined with Polish cannon fodder to attack head on while using German troops and tanks for the pincer movements.
Secretly pre-stage German equipment in Finland, Poland and other countries. Then do the massive surprise attack, as well as having Japan simultaneously attack in Siberia.

With Leningrad so close to the Finish border, you should be able to capture it quickly.

Learn the damn lessons about logistics and specifically figure out how to use the Soviet rail system to get troops, tanks and supplies close to Moscow as soon as possible. Figure out how to solve the wide track vs. narrow track issue and all the other problems which plagued the Nazis.

Capture Moscow and strip it of all the manufacturing factories and equipment, keep the lion’s share and distribute some to key allies.

Then start to wipe out the civilians.

68

No. There is no practical way to invade in the numbers needed without launching much of the attack from Poland.

Japan wasn’t bad at building things. Where they put their efforts, their weapons were top notch; look at how the Zero tore Allied planes to shreds earlier in the war. Japan simply did not have the resources to build weapons in the quantity AND quality to match the Allies, and had internal political rifts of the likes that no external advice was going to fix.

69

I think I understand your argument. It’s a shoulda vs coulda. We COULDN’T do what you suggested because it took time. No amount of money or manpower instantly puts a boat in the water or a trained Navy to extend that force. We shoulda prepared for a war but we didn’t. Of this I agree with you.

The United States wasn’t a superpower at the beginning of WW-II. We were still reeling from WW-I and the Great Depression. Another major war was VERY unpopular as was massive spending on the military. We were waaaaay behind the power curve in every sense of the phrase.

70

It was the ideological driving force of the regime and served the function of political executioner. They did their job quite well as it doesn’t require a lot of skill to slaughter people.

71

I think we’re confusing our terms here. I’d agree the SS was excellent at shooting innocent people.

However, as the war wears on, “Waffen SS” generally refers to the military arm of the SS, not the core of it. Waffen SS divisions didn’t run death camps, they were actual infantry and armored divisions tasked with fighting enemy troops. While Waffen SS units were known for a savagery and murderousness quite distinct from regular units of the Heer, and the list of war crimes is longer than we could relate here, murder wasn’t their primary purpose. The organized murder in the field was largely carried out by SS Einsatzgruppen, who were rear echelon units and not generally of front line quality, and often supported by local fascist militias; it doesn’t take much of a soldier to shoot women and children.

72

That’s how I understand it. I never got why the Waffen SS increased in size so much during the war. Hitler must have been paranoid squared.

73

Cubed. Praetorianized units running in parallel to the regular army were and are the norm in many a paranoid authoritarian regime. Dictators tend to be nervous about regulars and like to hedge their bets. Hitler in particular had pretty good reason to be wary of his military which, his favorites aside, did not shower him with respect.

In modern times you could cite the dual-track military of Saudi Arabia with its National Guard alongside the army, or the Republican Guards units of the former Iraqi regime or Syria’s former Defense Companies as very similar examples.

74

I’m not sure it counts as paranoid if they’re really out to get you. Hitler was averaging several attempts on his life a year from 1933 on (and several earlier), many originating with officers in the regular military.

75

That is inaccurate to a laughable degree. The German military victories were made by the tactics and strategy of men like Von Manstein, Guderian, Von Kliest, Von Runsdet. They were not Nazis. The were professional soldiers. In fact the only professional military man who was also a Nazi was Goering.

76

If he goosesteps like a duck and straightarms like a duck, it’s a Nazi.

77

Take a look at a map of Europe in 1939 there’s no convenient way for Germany to attack the USSR other than through Poland. Japan was already in China (specifically Manchuria) before the Nazi’s came to power as well.

It would take a diplomatic genius to make all the alliances you’ve suggested (although to give Ribbentrop credit negotiating a non-aggression pact with the Soviets was a pretty sharp move).

More light tanks wouldn’t be particularly helpful, you’d just bounce even more ammo off the USSR’s better tanks (KV-1s and T-34s). The enormous number of soviet light tanks (BT series and over 10,000 T-26s) in 1941 didn’t help them very much in our timeline.

Pre-staging vast amounts of military equipment in other countries is sort of antithetical to conducting a surprise attack.

Leningrad was invested within 3 months of the launch of Barbarossa, yet despite the enormous losses inflicted on the Red Army was never captured. It’s hard to see how an alternate strategy could take it quickly while at the same time focusing on Moscow.

The gauge issue either requires massive infrastructure work to alter tracks or a huge conversion of rolling stock to be able to use wider track - either way it’s a big problem with no obvious solution.

All in all the invasion of the Soviet Union was about as successful as it could possibly be in our timeline, and still wasn’t enough to be complete.

78

The German military machine existed because Hitler and the Nazi party made it so. They were forbidden by international charter from building serious weapons of war. Their early victories were against weak countries using inferior tanks and equipment. What we think of as the technically advanced German war machine was built during the war.

79

Himmler was also using the Waffen SS to compete for power within the Nazi party with Goering, who was similarly building his own separate army (officially paratroops but mostly without any paratroop training in the last half of the war).

80

Wow. I had no idea.