# How did the Nazis determine if you were Jewish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 13, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316 "2009-05-13T18:05:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/1 "2009-05-13T18:05:01Z")
Maybe a naive question but how exactly did the Germans know who was and who wasn’t jewish when they were rounded up? Physical traits? Spoken language? Accents? Last names? Nowdays (at least in the US) I can’t tell if my co-worker is jewish irish german english etc. We all just look like a bunch of white Europeans. Did any of them attempt to fake a german heritage to avoid persecution and blend in? ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/2 "2009-05-13T18:45:17Z")
A lot of times they just asked you. It’s a sin to deny one’s faith. Otherwise, if you still had your foreskin, you were fine. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/3 "2009-05-13T20:03:36Z")
They did it any way they could, through documentation (birth records, synagogue records, etc.) relatives, association, profession, word-of-mouth, someone’s unfounded accusation, being seen in certain locations, etc. Many times it was “round them up/kill them, and ask questions later.” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/4 "2009-05-13T20:03:55Z")
The Nazis found Dutch census records to be quite helpfull in figuring out who had a Jewish grandparent. To this day some Holocaust survivors refuse to participate in censuses. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/5 "2009-05-13T20:24:11Z")
AFAIK, census records and pulling down people’s pants. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/6 "2009-05-13T20:42:04Z")
And remember, Jews (in Germany, at least) tended to be clearly identified/demarcated even before the rounding-up-and-shipping-to-death-camps policy came into effect. Under the Nazis, Jewish shops were marked with distinctive signs, Jewish people had to wear badges, etc. AFAICT, in most German communities, it would have been well known who was and wasn’t Jewish well before the efforts to implement the “Final Solution” really got started. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/7 "2009-05-13T20:55:58Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > A lot of times they just asked you. It’s a sin to deny one’s faith. I have a hard time buying into the idea that it’s a sin for a Jew to lie to a Nazi. If your questioner is evil and trying to destroy your faith, I would think that giving him false information inorder to help preserve your faith is a good thing. And if you’re not sincere in your denial is it really a denial? ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/8 "2009-05-13T21:08:02Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > I have a hard time buying into the idea that it’s a sin for a Jew to lie to a Nazi. > > If your questioner is evil and trying to destroy your faith, I would think that giving him false information inorder to help preserve your faith is a good thing. > > And if you’re not sincere in your denial is it really a denial? Bear in mind that many people were identified from innocent sources like the aforementioned Dutch census records. I’m not a theologian, but while it might not be a big deal to lie to a Nazi bent on murdering one’s people, it might be a sin to deny one’s faith to a harmless census-taker who works for one’s own, relatively tolerant, government. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/9 "2009-05-13T21:48:44Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > I have a hard time buying into the idea that it’s a sin for a Jew to lie to a Nazi. > > If your questioner is evil and trying to destroy your faith, I would think that giving him false information inorder to help preserve your faith is a good thing. It’s not a sin. Every Jewish law except for the ones against murdering an innocent person (you can kill someone in self-defense if they’re trying to kill you), adultery, and idol worship gets set aside if you can save your life by violating that law. Lying and saying you’re not Jewish is none of those things, so it’s fine to do it to save your life. > [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > it might be a sin to deny one’s faith to a harmless census-taker who works for one’s own, relatively tolerant, government. Unless you were extremely paranoid, why would you do that if your government didn’t persecute Jews? It’s not like these people could see into the future and know what Germany was going to be like and that it was going to occupy the Netherlands. Even if you did lie to the census taker, your neighbors are going to notice if you do things like have a menorah instead of a Christmas tree in your window, or go to worship on Saturday rather than Sunday, or do your yard work on Sunday rather than on Saturday. That would only work if you weren’t going to incorporate any Jewish practices in your life, or if you were going to go to great extents to keep them secret. Again, unless you’re utterly paranoid or really did want to live a non-Jewish life, why would you do something like that if your government and your neighbors don’t persecute Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/10 "2009-05-13T21:55:00Z")
There still must have been at least some Jews who slipped the net and managed to “pass” as Gentiles (which I’m guessing would have been more difficult for men, but not absolutely impossible). Are there any records of Jews who have testified to having survived in this manner? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/11 "2009-05-13T22:07:27Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > Otherwise, if you still had your foreskin, you were fine. > [@](#): > > Roman Guard: Jewish, huh? > Josephus: He missed! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/12 "2009-05-13T22:17:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There still must have been at least some Jews who slipped the net and managed to “pass” as Gentiles (which I’m guessing would have been more difficult for men, but not absolutely impossible). > > Are there any records of Jews who have testified to having survived in this manner? I’m pretty sure I remember seeing somewhere (hey, great cite, yeah?) a memoir of a German Jew who managed to “pass” like that … and ended up conscripted into the German army. Where he had to hide the fact that he was circumcised :eek:. Better than a concentration camp, but not a fun way to get through the war… ETA: here we go. Lots, apparently. [http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/020705/army.shtml](http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/020705/army.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/13 "2009-05-13T22:25:12Z")
I imagine there were far fewer Jews who lived secularly pre-war, so everyone would know who the Jews in the neighborhood were, especially in smaller cities and villages. The US Holocaust Museum has a fairly extensive exhibit on how the Germans would identify people as Jewish based on physical characteristics such as head size, nose shape, facial ratios, hair consistency and color. There were pocket charts and such. I’d have been up a chimney, me. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/14 "2009-05-13T22:45:25Z")
The best answer was that given by **Kimstu:** It’s not like the Nazis only started to figure out who was Jewish and who wasn’t at the time the deportations started. They had been making careful records of everyone’s geneological background for years beforehand. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/15 "2009-05-13T22:47:56Z")
> [@lisacurl](#): > > I imagine there were far fewer Jews who lived secularly pre-war, so everyone would know who the Jews in the neighborhood were, especially in smaller cities and villages. I am not so sure about that. I am sure there was some self-ghettoization and ultra-religiosity, but there were certainly a good chunk of secular Jews dating from Bismarck’s time forward. Germany was an advanced social democracy with a strong industrial economy (that’s probably less true as you head East, though I’m sure many of the Jews of Budapest or wherever were just businessmen, not Orthodox scholars or shtetl-dwellers). Here’s an account of Bismark’s supposedly-very-tolerant view of Jews: > **[The New York Times - Breaking News, US News, World News and Videos](https://www.nytimes.com?res=9504EED71431E233A2575AC0A9619C946096D6CF)** > > Live news, investigations, opinion, photos and video by the journalists of The New York Times from more than 150 countries around the world. Subscribe for coverage of U.S. and international news, politics, business, technology, science, health, arts,... So: you’re living in a fairly secularized society, with a well-organized bureaucracy, you consider yourself as much a “German” as a “Jew,” so when the nice census taker comes by in, say, 1880, if one of the (many) questions is, state your religion, why would you, a respectable burgher who just wants to do his civic duty, not give an accurate answer? Then the industrious German civil service keeps those records on file for fifty years, so they’re conveniently available when the regime that **doesn’t** think it’s possible to be a “Jewish German” starts taking an interest in who’s which. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/16 "2009-05-13T23:09:18Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Unless you were extremely paranoid, why would you do that if your government didn’t persecute Jews? It’s not like these people could see into the future and know what Germany was going to be like and that it was going to occupy the Netherlands. > > Even if you did lie to the census taker, your neighbors are going to notice if you do things like have a menorah instead of a Christmas tree in your window, or go to worship on Saturday rather than Sunday, or do your yard work on Sunday rather than on Saturday. That would only work if you weren’t going to incorporate any Jewish practices in your life, or if you were going to go to great extents to keep them secret. Again, unless you’re utterly paranoid or really did want to live a non-Jewish life, why would you do something like that if your government and your neighbors don’t persecute Jews? That was my point, in a tolerant society, there is no reason to lie to the census-taker about your religion. The information is completely innocuous in such a situation. If your country gets invaded by fascists however, that horse is already out of the barn. Considering the use of such records in the past, why should anyone in a modern, peaceful country give any census information? Your own government won’t use it against you, but if there’s a coup or invasion, the bad guys might decide to execute everybody in a particular demographic, which might include you. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/17 "2009-05-13T23:59:40Z")
There is probably a useful distinction to be made between Germany proper and the occupied countries. Germany proper: in most communities people (and, hence the authorities) knew as a matter of course not only if their neighbours were Jewish but also, failing that, what Christian denomination they belonged to (pre-Third Reich, references to a ‘mixed marriage’ were mostly to a Catholic/Protestant one…). German Jews mostly were quite secular and assimilated but it would have been very difficult to ‘pass as’ of non-Jewish ancestry because basically the burden of proof was put on the citizen not the state. In order not to be discriminated against everyone had to get at least a ‘kleiner Ariernachweis’ ([photograph of one](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Ariernachweis_13.jpg)) (an informal designation), a document attesting to what one’s parents and grandparents were and that they were baptized - if all four grandparents were you were free and clear for most purposes except very special ones like owning a farm or joining the SS. Occupied countries: obviously methods would vary very much, from government records in Western Europe to rounding up people in _shtetl_s in Eastern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/18 "2009-05-14T01:55:59Z")
The SS had an office whose mission was to search for “hidden” Jews. They went through public records and they paid informants to find people who had Jewish ancestors. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/19 "2009-05-14T07:15:08Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I’m pretty sure I remember seeing somewhere (hey, great cite, yeah?) a memoir of a German Jew who managed to “pass” like that … and ended up conscripted into the German army. Where he had to hide the fact that he was circumcised :eek:. Better than a concentration camp, but not a fun way to get through the war… > > ETA: here we go. Lots, apparently. [http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/020705/army.shtml](http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/020705/army.shtml) This reminds me: [The Nazis’ “Ideal German Soldier” was half-Jewish.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Goldberg) Apparently, the Nazi policy on half-Jewish people was confused and they were not always sent to the camps along with people the Nazis considered fully Jewish. The Nazis knew Goldberg was half-Jewish but they still allowed him to save his Jewish father from the camps and, of course, they used his blonde-haired-blue-eyed image in propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316/20 "2009-05-14T14:37:22Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I’m pretty sure I remember seeing somewhere (hey, great cite, yeah?) a memoir of a German Jew who managed to “pass” like that … and ended up conscripted into the German army. Where he had to hide the fact that he was circumcised :eek:. Better than a concentration camp, but not a fun way to get through the war… There’s a very good movie, **Europa, Europa** with this plot. A German Jewish boy manages to flee to Poland, winds up in a Soviet orphanage, and then when the German comes he convinces a group of soldiers he’s Volksdeutsche. He serves at their interpreter and eventually ends up in an elite SS boarding school and later fighting on the streets of Berlin. Hiding his penis is a major plot point; at one point there’s a very funny scene he’s taking a bath alone at night in a barn and an officer sneeks in and grabs his cock. Turns out the officer is gay so neither squeals on the other. It’s based on a true story. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-nazis-determine-if-you-were-jewish/496316.md?page=2)